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Thread: OC in MO

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    OC in MO

    Hi to everyone. I grew up in Festus, MO but left nearly 20 years ago after joining the Army, but have a question for all of you. In MO can you legally OC? In NC where I live you can. In fact you can OC in nearly all the same places you can concealed, but I'm asking as I my family still lives in the Festus and are intrested in OCing.

    Glock19fan

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    Re: OC in MO

    It depends, there is no preemption for open carry in MO, so each political subdivision may make their own laws.

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcgunfan View Post
    It depends, there is no preemption for open carry in MO, so each political subdivision may make their own laws.

    Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2

    Which means they will need to research the city ordinances for clarification. Plus, there are some folks in the forum who are from the Festus area who could chime in specifically to the area and/or who to contact.
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    A coup[le people on missouricarry.com have compiled a pretty good list of OC hostile cities. To my knowledge no counties ban OC (don't think they can) but a bunch of the little berds around "The Loo" do and it is a real patchwork.

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    Re: OC in MO

    95% of cities and counties allow citizens to openly carry a firearm so long as the gun remains safely holstered. Now, as for the "loaded/unloaded" part.. that is a good question. It roughly depends on whom you ask. Some areas allow you to be able to carry a "loaded" weapon while other areas don't. There's a list somewhere on the internet that lets you see the cities that will allow the "open carry" of a firearm. However, there will be areas of which are not listed and may not have the laws/ordinances listed. In which case, it's a good idea if you're not sure to contact a local law enforcement office or City Hall to find out what ordinances and laws there are regarding firearms. The "loaded/unloaded" part is tricky. It's basically a checkerboard of differences in each city/county. So, be sure you consult the local laws/ordinances before you O.C.
    *this doesn't mean you won't get stopped/questioned by law enforcement about your weapon. It just depends on which area you're in*

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    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    95% of cities and counties allow citizens to openly carry a firearm so long as the gun remains safely holstered. Now, as for the "loaded/unloaded" part.. that is a good question. It roughly depends on whom you ask. Some areas allow you to be able to carry a "loaded" weapon while other areas don't. There's a list somewhere on the internet that lets you see the cities that will allow the "open carry" of a firearm. However, there will be areas of which are not listed and may not have the laws/ordinances listed. In which case, it's a good idea if you're not sure to contact a local law enforcement office or City Hall to find out what ordinances and laws there are regarding firearms. The "loaded/unloaded" part is tricky. It's basically a checkerboard of differences in each city/county. So, be sure you consult the local laws/ordinances before you O.C.
    *this doesn't mean you won't get stopped/questioned by law enforcement about your weapon. It just depends on which area you're in*
    I have yet to see a muni that lists unloaded OC only, where are you finding this? Can you post which ones state this? Please never ask the police or at the police station, to find out if OC is legal, they can and will lie to you to keep you from doing it. You need to view the ordinance book to see if it is banned or has recently been banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    95% of cities and counties allow citizens to openly carry a firearm so long as the gun remains safely holstered. Now, as for the "loaded/unloaded" part.. that is a good question. It roughly depends on whom you ask. Some areas allow you to be able to carry a "loaded" weapon while other areas don't. There's a list somewhere on the internet that lets you see the cities that will allow the "open carry" of a firearm. However, there will be areas of which are not listed and may not have the laws/ordinances listed. In which case, it's a good idea if you're not sure to contact a local law enforcement office or City Hall to find out what ordinances and laws there are regarding firearms. The "loaded/unloaded" part is tricky. It's basically a checkerboard of differences in each city/county. So, be sure you consult the local laws/ordinances before you O.C.
    *this doesn't mean you won't get stopped/questioned by law enforcement about your weapon. It just depends on which area you're in*
    Can you cite the law or ordinance that states the gun must remain safely holstered? Please cite the ordinance that says it must be unloaded if OCed. More think so instead of ordinance or statute?

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    Re: OC in MO

    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    Can you cite the law or ordinance that states the gun must remain safely holstered? Please cite the ordinance that says it must be unloaded if OCed. More think so instead of ordinance or statute?
    1) I was making a generalization to answer a question.. Cite the ordinance that a gun must be safely holstered...Are you that stupid? YOU'D RATHER BE SHOT BY AN OFFICER FOR HAVING A GUN IN YOUR HAND?! Do us all a favor.. Leave your gun at home before you get yourself killed.

    2) I don't know which ordinance, again, if you read it, I was making a generalization to answer a question. There are some areas which may not allow a "loaded" gun to be "open carried." That's why I said to check the local laws and ordinances. Every city is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    1) I was making a generalization to answer a question.. Cite the ordinance that a gun must be safely holstered...Are you that stupid? YOU'D RATHER BE SHOT BY AN OFFICER FOR HAVING A GUN IN YOUR HAND?! Do us all a favor.. Leave your gun at home before you get yourself killed.

    2) I don't know which ordinance, again, if you read it, I was making a generalization to answer a question. There are some areas which may not allow a "loaded" gun to be "open carried." That's why I said to check the local laws and ordinances. Every city is different.
    Ah, but you are the one that specifically stated that a gun must be safely holstered to legal OC not me. I was wanting a cite to the law or ordinance to that statement. It may not be safe to do so but would Mexican style OC be legal?
    I can't find anywhere in my post that stated I would carry a gun in my hand. Would that not be brandishing to do so?
    Last edited by 9026543; 08-26-2012 at 07:47 AM.

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    sigh...it will never end
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member BionicRooster's Avatar
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    It's legal but....

    Quote Originally Posted by 9026543 View Post
    It may not be safe to do so but would Mexican style OC be legal?
    ....ya might shoot yer balls off...

    All humor aside, it's extremely NOT recommended. When you OC, you should use a holster with some sort of retention, to have some protection against a "gun grab". Having retention could mean the difference between someone getting your gun, or giving you enough time to prevent and defend against the attack.

    And one last note, when your firearm is properly holstered, you're less likely to be viewed as a common street thug, therefore less likely to have to deal with MWAG calls.
    Last edited by BionicRooster; 08-26-2012 at 11:50 AM.

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    Yeah, tell me about it.

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    There are no State statutes regarding "Brandishing" or "Flourishing" (That I can find in the Missouri State Statutes):

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/homestatsearch.asp

    The above site is where you can look up State statutes in Missouri.
    I cannot find any local laws (In Missouri) that discuss "loaded" vs. "unloaded" in regard to OC.

    If some one finds anything about the above stated things, feel free to post, we all need the information... sharing....
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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    571.303.1
    (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;
    .....and

    571.037. Any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement, and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, may briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
    IOW Missouri does not have a anti-brandishing law, or a anti-flourishing law. But, I ain't the cop who gets to define angry, threatening, negligent, or unlawful manner.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    There are no State statutes regarding "Brandishing" or "Flourishing" (That I can find in the Missouri State Statutes):
    Brandishing is a verb and is not required to be defined in order to have merit. You would never be charged with "brandishing" however "assault with a deadly weapon" is indeed defined and in a probable cause statement for your arrest it could well say "subject entered the premises brandishing a gun" and the word brandishing would have absolute legal meaning.

    It is MY own understanding, when used as a verb, the term history is to draw one's sword so in order to brandish, you would need to have the firearm IN YOUR HAND and then of course if you point it at or threaten to point it at, you have most certainly assaulted the other party less it be self defense.

    I am not sure it is possible to brandish without it in your hand, the verb means it must be action and there is no action in one's holster.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    If I may direct your attention to 571.303.1;
    So stating the word "exhibits."

    While not saying the word "brandishing," the word "exhibits" (meaning to display, otherwise show or bring to visual attention by hand) a firearm... Clearly the meaning "brandishing" is implied in such a circumstance. Therefore, "brandishing" a weapon in public is illegal.

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    Interwebs lawyers......571.303.1 reads, and I quote:
    (4) Exhibits, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner; or

    (5) Has a firearm or projectile weapon readily capable of lethal use on his or her person, while he or she is intoxicated, and handles or otherwise uses such firearm or projectile weapon in either a negligent or unlawful manner or discharges such firearm or projectile weapon unless acting in self-defense;
    .....also.....

    The new 571.037 reads, and I quote:
    unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner,
    You could be, but a prosecutor like would lose if he did, charge you with "brandishing". It is quite clear in the statutes that you must "do" something, short of discharging your pistols, that could be construed or otherwised deemed "bad" while your pistola is in your hand.

    As I stated earlier, I do not get to define what angry or threatening is, nor do I get to define negligent or unlawful.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Re: exhibiting, "brandishing" a firearm (I.e. 571.303.1, 571.037

    Okay, let's ask the question.. What exactly is considered "angry or threatening manner?"
    In any context of the phrase, this must mean the intentional "act of drawing the weapon in such a manner as to be deemed hostile with intent to wound or kill; otherwise the affirmation of intent to display the weapon in a manner that would result in a "clear act of aggression with intent to harm or kill."
    Being a civilian carrying a weapon on my hip, I do not get to decide what the Police or another person see as "angry or threatening" because everyone has a different perspective on what they consider "angry or threatening." Just as a normal unarmed person would react with fright or fear; a Police officer would react in a "defensive" posture by drawing, perhaps even discharging his weapon in such a circumstance thereby rendering the person "displaying (I.e. exhibiting the weapon) a "dead duck." So, given that circumstance, "exhibiting (I.e. the "unlawful" display of the weapon in the hand, or the direct "act" of removing the weapon from a holster) is called "brandishing" the weapon.

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    Cool ocing

    I oc in joplin and webb city with no problem and springfield with no retention holster I only had one person ask what kind of gun i was carrying been in all walmarts and restrants,gas stations

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    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    Just as a normal unarmed person would react with fright or fear; a Police officer would react in a "defensive" posture by drawing, perhaps even discharging his weapon in such a circumstance thereby rendering the person "displaying (I.e. exhibiting the weapon) a "dead duck." So, given that circumstance, "exhibiting (I.e. the "unlawful" display of the weapon in the hand, or the direct "act" of removing the weapon from a holster) is called "brandishing" the weapon.
    Your insertion of OPINION into the law and reality are consistently different sir.

    Removing the firearm from its holster or simply carrying it in your hand in a safe manner do NOT equal brandishing. There are specific criteria, it is NOT an opinion based system, the act of carrying a firearm in one's hand does NOT constitute or represent any threat what so ever and you are completely wrong.

    Again, BRANDISHING is a verb, it is an ACTION, it does not involve firearms, one can brandish a sword, a club, a knife or a variety of other items, all of which may be carried in ones hand WITHOUT meeting the criteria of a threat. Some VERY specific case law exist regarding openly carried firearms in a safe manner in ones hand and one felon got out of a felon with a gun charge because police officers confronted him carrying 2 guns in his hands and his actions did not meet any level of threat so as to poison all evidence following the stop as the stop itself was ILLEGAL.

    It is no where near as simple as your opinions continue to try and represent and around here folks are prone to at least TRYING to be accurate.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Completely wrong? Am I now? Whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SixGunCowboy View Post
    Completely wrong? Am I now? Whatever.
    Yes, completely. Use the internet, it is a cool tool to get fairly accurate information on such topics. It by no means converts one to a lawyer, but it can give one enough information not to continue to propagate ignorance which is actually a key element to our government control, it is easier to pass a law if everyone already believes it exist and it can float right in under the radar.

    There are VERY specific guidelines regarding a threatening manner and the word brandishing is even used in the legalese description one has to use to make a probable cause statement to make an arrest.

    You can either educate yourself or you can remain ignorant of such things, either way you have still made a choice. There is a host of information available on this webspace, unfortunately there is also a lot of misinformation and without regard of your distaste for myself calling it out, you are propagating misinformation and are presenting it as psuedo-factual when it is not even accurate.

    To give you an exact example from a chargeable offense vs non-chargeable, I am brandishing a club and I say "I am going to bash your brains in" now Same situation, I am brandishing a club and I say "if those cops were not standing over there on the corner I would bash your brains in" The first one is absolutely chargeable as "assault" or even perhaps "assault with a deadly weapon" the second is NOT a crime, in fact I specifically stated I was NOT going to commit a crime and your feelings about it had no bearing what so ever on an officers ability to arrest. That is actually paraphrased from a probable cause training guide sir, not myself.

    Brandishing is a word used as a verb or adjective, it in no way indicates a threat of any sort, it is typically used when a weapon is being waved about in an unsafe manner aka a firearm not pointed down or in low ready position, it does not mean it is automatically brandishing just having it in your hand. If having a firearm in your hand were brandishing and could draw a charge, we would have an awful hunting season now would we not?

    My point is, relax a bit, try not to insert opinion into discussions that are discussing technicalities of law, it can get very confusing and no one is offering advice as a lawyer here, but a significant effort to keep information accurate is important to a great many here and that is why the holstered gun thread went where it did and why this one has as well.

    Sorry if it offends you, that is not the intent, however no one pinned the nice guy badge on me yet so if you opt to take it personal, you will not be alone, I tend to offend a few without regard for intent.

    Good luck
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

  23. #23
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Yes, completely. Use the internet, it is a cool tool to get fairly accurate information on such topics. It by no means converts one to a lawyer, but it can give one enough information not to continue to propagate ignorance which is actually a key element to our government control, it is easier to pass a law if everyone already believes it exist and it can float right in under the radar.

    There are VERY specific guidelines regarding a threatening manner and the word brandishing is even used in the legalese description one has to use to make a probable cause statement to make an arrest.

    You can either educate yourself or you can remain ignorant of such things, either way you have still made a choice. There is a host of information available on this webspace, unfortunately there is also a lot of misinformation and without regard of your distaste for myself calling it out, you are propagating misinformation and are presenting it as psuedo-factual when it is not even accurate.

    To give you an exact example from a chargeable offense vs non-chargeable, I am brandishing a club and I say "I am going to bash your brains in" now Same situation, I am brandishing a club and I say "if those cops were not standing over there on the corner I would bash your brains in" The first one is absolutely chargeable as "assault" or even perhaps "assault with a deadly weapon" the second is NOT a crime, in fact I specifically stated I was NOT going to commit a crime and your feelings about it had no bearing what so ever on an officers ability to arrest. That is actually paraphrased from a probable cause training guide sir, not myself.

    Brandishing is a word used as a verb or adjective, it in no way indicates a threat of any sort, it is typically used when a weapon is being waved about in an unsafe manner aka a firearm not pointed down or in low ready position, it does not mean it is automatically brandishing just having it in your hand. If having a firearm in your hand were brandishing and could draw a charge, we would have an awful hunting season now would we not?

    My point is, relax a bit, try not to insert opinion into discussions that are discussing technicalities of law, it can get very confusing and no one is offering advice as a lawyer here, but a significant effort to keep information accurate is important to a great many here and that is why the holstered gun thread went where it did and why this one has as well.

    Sorry if it offends you, that is not the intent, however no one pinned the nice guy badge on me yet so if you opt to take it personal, you will not be alone, I tend to offend a few without regard for intent.

    Good luck
    We ar enot lawyers and even if there were a few here it might be difficult to get a clear read on the whole subject of Brandish and all..
    LMTD, you are right, you are an equal opportunity offender. That's why we love you, equal treatment, no holds bared, fair and honest.

    The whole "legal" interpretation may or may not ever be told, just depends if a judge wil ever interpret it for us, after all arn't their interpretations what really make the laws? It's called legislating from the bench, many are very good at it, even if we think they are totally out in "left" field.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
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  24. #24
    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    ........snip........

    Sorry if it offends you, that is not the intent, however no one pinned the nice guy badge on me yet so if you opt to take it personal, you will not be alone, I tend to offend a few without regard for intent.

    Good luck

    Oh No!!! I've been lied to, again!!

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