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Thread: College carry support?

  1. #1
    Regular Member MagiK_SacK's Avatar
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    College carry support?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobile...ef=email_share

    Found this article today of a supreme court ruling in Colorado that over turned a ban on college carry. It looks like the ruling was back in March. Would a record of non-issue in Colorado be something that could be used to help win college carry here in Virginia?
    .45 ACP - Because shooting twice is silly

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    No.

    And even if that case might have any utility, I am opposed to using it to move the issue of carry on colleges/universities forward. The abuse of the Virginia Administrative Code to erect prohibitions ought to and needs to be addressed head on.

    OTOH, I am filled with joy at the remarks of CU's President when one of the professors there threatened to shut down his class if he found out a student was CCing. Basically the word was sent out that doing so violated both school policies on diversity and violated his employment contract - both offenses for which he could be fired summarily.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    I always get a good laugh reading some of the discussions on Huffpost, they always seem to draw out some pretty crazy folks from all directions.

    I am of course 100% for college carry, and think it is desperately needed here in Virginia but I would have to agree with Skid on the way it should be implemented. I know of a number of current students here who do carry, and there have definitely been some issues around the VCU area downtown and over the past year or so it seems to have gotten worse so hopefully the implementation will come sooner rather than later!

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    I Agree...

    I agree that open carry should be allowed on college campuses. I attend Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Va. The surrounding area is VERY rough (last year a student was attacked by a group of locals for his shoes!), but the University continues its prohibition on weapons of any kind, concealed or not.

    My question is this: What can I do to promote change?

  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    short answer because i'm on the internet via the phone-

    1- activate students for concealed carry on campus. be present at every open meeting of the bd of visitors the university senate or whatever it is called and get to know the campus and local cops. publicize every incident o and near campus.


    contact your senator and delegate. almost to the point their admin aide calls you with their schedule of events in the district,

    read the book rules for radicals and use the good parts.

    if i remember when i get home i'll flesh this out

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post

    My question is this: What can I do to promote change?
    Start by gathering like minded students. You'll find out how many classmates you really hate pretty quickly. BTW, that doesn't change after you graduate

    Anyway, there is power in numbers.

    Register to vote. Politicians are only afraid of angry registered voters at election time...and Holy water.

    Come up with a workable statute. The key word is workable and that means one that will allow you to carry while not stepping on the toes of other gun owners. This is one of the only situations where I would recommend using a CHP as leverage. Just make sure it only concerns students on campus or it won't make it out of committee. If someone tells you different, tell them to do some recent history studies.

    Get to know a lot of legislators because you have to get a bill introduced. There are really very few if any true Pro Gun Legislators....just some that are less anti than others.

    Plan on doing this yourselves. There is help available but until there is something solid, you won't get much. Be very careful dealing with Students for Concealed Carry. The individual groups are OK but the state leadership is not and their track record is nonexistent.

    I would strongly recommend you develop some contacts at the Appalachian School of Law.

    Last, don't get discouraged. It will take time and a lot of work.

    Good Luck!
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-27-2012 at 10:25 AM.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Thanks!

    Thank you both for your quick responses. This is pretty overwhelming, but hopefully I will be able to get some students together. Today is my first day back, and a girl I went to school with actually approached me about the violence in the surrounding area, and what she could do to protect herself. I gave her my email, and told her to go ahead and give it to any other students she feels are like-minded.

    As far as political support, where can I find information about which politicians are pro-gun?

    "Come up with a workable statute. The key word is workable and that means one that will allow you to carry while not stepping on the toes of other gun owners. This is one of the only situations where I would recommend using a CHP as leverage. Just make sure it only concerns students on campus or it won't make it out of committee. If someone tells you different, tell them to do some recent history studies."
    ^^ Any specific suggestions?

    Also: When obtaining information from ODU Police, is there a specific way to ask about incidents?

    One last thing: How do you quote other users?

    Thank you all for being supportive of a newbie

    -Eddy

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    As far as political support, where can I find information about which politicians are pro-gun?

    Answer: Spend some time looking at last years bills, research the voting record of the Patron on other bills. I video many of the Committee meetings and Senate discussions.

    "Come up with a workable statute. The key word is workable and that means one that will allow you to carry while not stepping on the toes of other gun owners. This is one of the only situations where I would recommend using a CHP as leverage. Just make sure it only concerns students on campus or it won't make it out of committee. If someone tells you different, tell them to do some recent history studies."
    ^^ Any specific suggestions?

    Answer: Unfortunately, without using Concealed Handgun Permits as a crutch, you won't have any success. Prepare a bill that ONLY CONCERNS STUDENTS, FACULTY AND STAFF, on campus but does not change the right for Non Students to OC or CC on Campus.

    Also: When obtaining information from ODU Police, is there a specific way to ask about incidents?

    Answer:Read up on the FOIA laws. Contact Megan Rhyne at Virginia Coalition for Open Government
    P.O. Box 2576
    Williamsburg, Virginia 23187
    I recommend you become a member. Tell Megan I sent you and she'll charge you extra!

    A word of warning...Megan is mildly anti, but is also a great help.

    One last thing: How do you quote other users?

    Answer: Just hit the Quote button instead of reply

    Thank you all for being supportive of a newbie

    -Eddy
    .....
    Skidmark and probably others will jump in with their advice soon.
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-27-2012 at 10:52 AM.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Thanks! (Again!)

    Thank you again for the quick response. In regards to ODU PD, I have found they have a blotter on their website, so asking for more information should not be a problem. I am going to definitely look to our local politicians and see what I can come up with.

    Where can I find last years bills?

    Thanks again and keep the advice coming!

    -Eddy

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    Question

    Help me understand how this works

    Its my understanding that at a PUBLIC college they can only prohibit people under their influence: faculty, staff, students, from carrying but not the public at large because it is a public place just the same as say a library? So students could for instance have an "Empty Holster" protest, but someone like say VCDL (hint hint) could still hold an "Oh Yes We Can!" rally ??

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twpetry View Post
    Help me understand how this works

    Its my understanding that at a PUBLIC college they can only prohibit people under their influence: faculty, staff, students, from carrying but not the public at large because it is a public place just the same as say a library? So students could for instance have an "Empty Holster" protest, but someone like say VCDL (hint hint) could still hold an "Oh Yes We Can!" rally ??
    Oh my God this is brilliant. That is exactly how the policy works! Please allow me to cite:
    http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/odu-...cealed-permits
    *UPDATE* I'm not currently sure if open carry is allowed. I know it is not permitted in buildings, but I'm unsure of the outdoors aspect. */UPDATE*

    (I know it isn't an official cite, but it explains it pretty well. I will work on getting the actual cite here in a minute)

    Also, I would LOVE to participate in such a protest, and I can see about possibly making fliers to post around campus if we can materialize this.

    -Eddy
    Last edited by Esanders2008; 08-27-2012 at 12:17 PM. Reason: updated

  12. #12
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Here it is!

    Here is the official cite:

    http://ww2.odu.edu/ao/bov/manual/pdfs/1013.pdf

    I have to say, this is my first day being registered on this forum (I've been reading for about two weeks), and you guys mean business!


    I also have a first draft of a letter to my senator, if anyone cares to read and add input:

    Senator Wagner:

    My name is Eddy Sanders, and I am registered to vote in your district. I am a senior at Old Dominion University, and I have a concern about one of the University’s policies concerning weapons.

    It is my right as a citizen to defend myself from attack. However, ODU has diminished this right by enforcing a regulation that says students and faculty may not posses weapons of any sort, anywhere on campus. This includes locked vehicles parked in student garages.

    ODU’s campus is a wonderful place to learn and develop young minds, but the surrounding areas are very dangerous. Last year, while I was at a social gathering just off campus, another student was walking alone and was attacked by a small group of thugs. They stole his shoes, his wallet, and his cell phone, then they proceeded to assault him. Had this student been legally armed, he could have defended himself.

    I urge you to introduce legislation allowing for both concealed carry and open carry of firearms on college campuses. If legislation such as this passes, students will be able to take a stand and say, “I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM!”

    Yours respectfully,


    Eddy Sanders

    Thanks again,

    -Eddy

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    Also, I would LOVE to participate in such a protest, and I can see about possibly making fliers to post around campus if we can materialize this.

    -Eddy
    As I said...round up some like minded students first. The VCU rally was a couple of students and a bunch of old VCDL people.
    JMU was the same, just smaller.

    Students don't care about old farts....they need to see their peers in action.
    Last edited by peter nap; 08-27-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Hmm..

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    As I said...round up some like minded students first.
    How do you propose I find like-minded students? I don't have many "friends" at the University. I am a non-traditional student with a military background, so I don't live on campus or generally interact with people other than in class.

    -Eddy

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    How do you propose I find like-minded students? I don't have many "friends" at the University. I am a non-traditional student with a military background, so I don't live on campus or generally interact with people other than in class.

    -Eddy
    That's obstacle number 1 Eddy.

    Talk to others in your classes. Find other Vets, start a Facebook page. Get some cards printed.
    Being an activist is work.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That's obstacle number 1 Eddy.

    Talk to others in your classes. Find other Vets, start a Facebook page. Get some cards printed.
    Being an activist is work.
    Time to stop being lazy, i suppose. I found a FB page for ODU College Republicans, I am going to contact them and see if I can network with Pro-OC individuals that way.

    -Eddy

  17. #17
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Additionally

    If anyone has a catchy name for a FB group I would love to hear it. These are all really great suggestions, and I appreciate all the help.

    -Eddy

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    ....

    Senator Wagner:

    My name is Eddy Sanders, and I am registered to vote in your district. I am a senior at Old Dominion University, and I have a concern about one of the University’s policies concerning weapons.

    It is my right as a citizen to defend myself from attack. However, ODU Board of Visitors and the <correct name of faculty senate/president's cabinet/whoever they are> has seen fit to trample on the authority of the General Assembly by using the Virginia Administrative Code to impliment a policy regarding the possession of firearms on campus without having been specifically granted the authotity to do so, as noted in § 15.2-915. The policy established by ODU, found at http://ww2.odu.edu/ao/bov/manual/pdfs/1013.pdf clerarly usurps the authority the General Assembly reserved unto itself. has diminished this right by enforcing a regulation that says students and faculty may not posses weapons of any sort, anywhere on campus. This includes locked vehicles parked in student garages.

    ODU’s campus is a wonderful place to learn and develop young minds, but the surrounding areas are very dangerous. Last year, while I was at a social gathering just off campus, another student was walking alone and was attacked by a small group of thugs. They stole his shoes, his wallet, and his cell phone, then they proceeded to assault him. Had this student been legally armed, he could have defended himself. it is difficult to do so when confronted daily with the fact that the Board of Visitors and administration have no respect for the General Assembly. It calls into question whethere there are other actions that are also sending the message that if you violate a law that has no "teeth" to it via a penalty for violation, you can violate those laws with impunity.

    I urge you to introduce legislation allowing for both concealed carry and open carry of firearms on college campuses. If legislation such as this passes, students will be able to take a stand and say, “I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM!” putting "teeth" into § 15.2-915 by adding penalties to the violation of the statute.

    Yours respectfully,


    Eddy Sanders
    OK, it may need some additional cleaning up, but that is the rough idea. Politicians do not give a rat's backside about your rights unless you show them that at least a pluarity of voters are POd about those rights. Politicians can be worked up by showing them that ODU's Board of Visitors has "disrespected" them and continues to do so blatantly. You are going to hear a lot about tinkering with the laws about where you cannot carry concealed, but politicians hate tinkering and when they do tinker it generally winds up worse than before they stuck their thumbs in the situation.

    Go look at what happened in Colorado - the Boards of Visitors got caught with their hands in the cookie jar and had their wrists slapped in a way that had impact. There is a direction you could aim to go.

    I'm too lazy to go back and see if I suggested reading Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" or not. If I did, I was spot on. If I failed to recommend that I do so now. The strategies that radical leftists use(d) can also be applied to fighting the status quo of firearm prohibition on campus. You may decide to forgo some of the more socially inappropriate tactics, but there are a lot of excellent ideas and suggestions of how to use them. Go check it out of the ODU libraty!

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  19. #19
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Letter

    Thank you so much for cleaning up my letter. I believe that your logic is very sound, and to be honest I did not know that that statute existed. I will use this letter as you have written it, if that is ok with you.

    -Eddy

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Another question

    I have another question: If any business can prohibit weapons, what stops ODU from acting under that same authority?

    -Eddy

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    One can always cite other state court opinions, especially if no opinions are there for the state that the case has the venue.

    How much weight will it be given? Who knows .... check the opinion and make sure that citing it won't come back and bite you ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I have another question: If any business can prohibit weapons, what stops ODU from acting under that same authority?

    -Eddy
    Because ODU is not private property. They are a public university, owned and operated by the State. That means that they are limited in what they can do by the Constitution of Virginia and the US Constitution.

    They have only the power and authority to do those things that the General Assembly has empowered and authorized them to do.
    Last edited by grylnsmn; 08-27-2012 at 04:50 PM.
    Alma 43:47 - "And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed...."
    Self defense isn't just a good idea, it's a commandment.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    My only issue

    My only issue with this legislation is that if passed, it would revert the rule about firearms to the old one, which still prohibits firearms, but without criminal penalty. I could still face academic sanctions for OCing. Please feel free to correct me if I am misunderstanding.

    -Eddy

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    Here is the official cite:

    http://ww2.odu.edu/ao/bov/manual/pdfs/1013.pdf

    I have to say, this is my first day being registered on this forum (I've been reading for about two weeks), and you guys mean business!


    I also have a first draft of a letter to my senator, if anyone cares to read and add input:

    Senator Wagner:

    My name is Eddy Sanders, and I am registered to vote in your district. I am a senior at Old Dominion University, and I have a concern about one of the University’s policies concerning weapons.

    It is my right as a citizen to defend myself from attack. However, ODU has diminished this right by enforcing a regulation that says students and faculty may not posses weapons of any sort, anywhere on campus. This includes locked vehicles parked in student garages.

    ODU’s campus is a wonderful place to learn and develop young minds, but the surrounding areas are very dangerous. Last year, while I was at a social gathering just off campus, another student was walking alone and was attacked by a small group of thugs. They stole his shoes, his wallet, and his cell phone, then they proceeded to assault him. Had this student been legally armed, he could have defended himself.

    I urge you to introduce legislation allowing for both concealed carry and open carry of firearms on college campuses. If legislation such as this passes, students will be able to take a stand and say, “I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM!”

    Yours respectfully,


    Eddy Sanders

    Thanks again,

    -Eddy
    My observation from doing far more reading than posting on this forum ... is that we avoid using the word "weapons" and prefer the use of guns or firearms. "Weapons" seems to bring with it a connotation of aggressiveness to some people, whereas we, here, are all about defensiveness. The tool of last resort in our defensiveness is the gun.

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    Thank you so much for cleaning up my letter. I believe that your logic is very sound, and to be honest I did not know that that statute existed. I will use this letter as you have written it, if that is ok with you.

    -Eddy
    I'd prefer you cleaned it up a bit, and amplified a few spots. It was a very rough edit.

    More needs to be said about the BoV not having the authority to regulate in any way firearm carry by those that are not student/faculty/staff, and that based on McDonald students have a right to have firearms in their dorm room as that is effectively their home/dwelling/domicile during the school term. That is even moreso for those students who have registered as voters using their ODU address. More needs to be said, as well, about using the Virginia Administrative Code as an "end run" around the General Assembly's power to make laws and the misuse of the VAC to regulate behavior that has nothing to do with the operation of the university - buying coal, closing off streets, deciding who gets to use which parking lot are clearly about the operation of the university. Regulating firearms is clearly not.

    Finally, the intent is to arouse ire at the usurpation of the power and majesty of the General Assembly.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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