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Thread: NYPD wounding bystanders

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    NYPD wounding bystanders

    Two killed nine wounded near the Empire state building in New York today. A person shot and killed an x-employer. The shooter was followed and pointed out to two NYPD who confronted the shooter and ended up killing him and wounding nine bystanders. At this time, the news I saw said it is believed NYPD strays hit the majority of the wounded bystanders. A NYPD spokes person justified the wounded bystanders by saying the shooter was a dangerous person and had to be stopped. Just wondering what would have happened if a civilian had stopped the shooter and wounded the bystanders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 28kfps View Post
    Just wondering what would have happened if a civilian had stopped the shooter and wounded the bystanders.
    A civilian probably wouldn't have wounded the bystanders in the first place.

    Back in the mid-1980s, Colonel Cooper mentioned in Guns & Ammo that NYPD's hit rate was 11%. He got a nastygram from them, in which they bragged about a 16% hit rate! The Colonel replied "Well, excuse us all to hell . . .out here, we talk about one hundred percent!"

    Doing the math, you find that 84 out of every 100 rounds fired by NYPD cops goes somewhere they didn't want it to go. That's pretty close to a 9:1 ratio.

    Hmmm . . .9 to 1 . . .one bad guy hit, 9 bystanders . . .

    Now, to analyze this, remember that most cops are NOT into guns. They are issued a pistol and given some training. Most civilians who defend themselves in shootings ARE into guns, they bought their gun and the ammo after considering which to buy, and they likely spent a lot more time practicing. They also aren't distracted by all of the administrative Mickey Mouse that a cop faces after a shooting.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    When are you gun lovers going to learn that only the police should have guns? They shot the bad guy, what more do you want? I feel so safe that it gives me the warm and fuzzies all over.

    TBG
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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Guy View Post
    When are you gun lovers going to learn that only the police should have guns? They shot the bad guy, what more do you want? I feel so safe that it gives me the warm and fuzzies all over.

    TBG
    I saw the overhead security video cam on this one this morning. Looks to be several cops kinda "chasing" the perp; and when they got within about 20 feet or less of him he turned towards them and they fired and he went down. How so many bystanders were wounded by the cops is strange indeed. I wonder how many rounds they expelled to down the guy from 20' or less. Oh, the perp was in a suit carrying a briefcase.

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    Re: NYPD wounding bystanders

    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    Oh, the perp was in a suit carrying a briefcase.
    Clearly, the NYPD should start stop&frisk'ing these "Suits". You'd think they would've figured out when the Suits collapsed our economy... Clearly a suit is an indication of a domestic terrorist. That's why you'll never catch me in such terrorist garb. Yep, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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    Training

    One of the better firearms trainers NYPD has ever had complained to the brass about the lack of training relative to firearms so much that they relented and gave him an extra one half of a man-day per officer----a YEAR!! No wonder they don't shoot well. Almost none of the rank and file have any firearms experience whatsoever when joining the force. What little training they get is cursory at best. This will not change until it is made painful--read that LOTS of money via lawsuits--and public officials held responsible(vicarious liability).

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    So... a guy goes into his former employment building; shoots his former boss dead; leaves the building; walks out onto a crowded sidewalk; is confronted and shot dead by NYPD in a hail of bullets... NYPD bullets that just so happen to wound 9 innocents (could have well killed some I guess). That's law enforcement at its finest, no? This really makes me ill. When speaking of "gun control," how are we going to "control" the guns in the possession of those who wear costumes and badges? Again... this makes me ill.

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    Regular Member The Big Guy's Avatar
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    All the years growing up they are told that firearms are bad and they are unable to shoot let alone own one. They get to the majic age and decide to become a cop. Somebody hands them a firearm for the first time and given a bit of training, they then set out amonst the unwashed. That shiny badge on their chest and that firearm on their hip and they are now one of the elite. Citizens be damned.

    TBG
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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Proof that 10-round mags aren't enough. If there would have only been one cop, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was pointing a gun at him. If there had been one cop and two bad guys, he would have had to reload THREE TIMES since he would have needed 32 shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    Proof that 10-round mags aren't enough. If there would have only been one cop, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was pointing a gun at him. If there had been one cop and two bad guys, he would have had to reload THREE TIMES since he would have needed 32 shots.
    Where are you getting this 10-round mag thing from? The prohibition of "large capacity magazines" in New York and California for example, does not include LE. The law limits the mere citizenry in those states to not more than 10 rounds in a mag.

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Where are you getting this 10-round mag thing from? The prohibition of "large capacity magazines" in New York and California for example, does not include LE. The law limits the mere citizenry in those states to not more than 10 rounds in a mag.
    Where am I getting this 10-round mag thing from? Read your last sentence again.

    If I'm not LE and multiple people break into my home, New York and California want me to have 10-round mags even though highly-trained officers needed 16 rounds for one guy. If there had been one police officer abiding by the same laws the peasants and commoners have to, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was in close range with a gun pointed at him.

    The place that has 10-round limits for the commoners "because no one needs more than 10 rounds" proves their own law to be idiotic and dangerous since their own highly-trained law enforcement have just shown you do need more than 10 rounds.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerClose View Post
    Where am I getting this 10-round mag thing from? Read your last sentence again.

    If I'm not LE and multiple people break into my home, New York and California want me to have 10-round mags even though highly-trained officers needed 16 rounds for one guy. If there had been one police officer abiding by the same laws the peasants and commoners have to, he would have had to reload while the bad guy was in close range with a gun pointed at him.

    The place that has 10-round limits for the commoners "because no one needs more than 10 rounds" proves their own law to be idiotic and dangerous since their own highly-trained law enforcement have just shown you do need more than 10 rounds.
    If they had fewer bullets, MAYBE, just maybe they would have taken better aim. Until they can account for their rounds, actions, maybe NYPD should be limited to single shot firearms, or at least back to revolvers.

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    Regular Member jdholmes's Avatar
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    NYPD wounding bystanders

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If they had fewer bullets, MAYBE, just maybe they would have taken better aim. Until they can account for their rounds, actions, maybe NYPD should be limited to single shot firearms, or at least back to revolvers.
    They'd probably be even worse aim with revolvers.

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    So… most everyone who is anyone (including the Mayor of NYC) is saying these cops did the “right” thing and had no choice… no choice? They are saying that they had to shoot the guy on this crowded sidewalk (lotsa people all around), because he had a “gun in their face.” Not only did they “shoot” the guy, by the number of bullets sent wherever, they made swiss cheese outa the guy (10 rounds I believe is what is reported that impacted his body at various locations). With those rounds, plus how many ever additional rounds that “missed” and went astray, it seems those cops just couldn’t stop pulling the trigger. .. no trigger discipline whatsoever it would seem. But… as most everyone is saying… they had no choice… really? NO CHOICE? And more than that, some are lauding those cops and saying they made the RIGHT choice… really? THE RIGHT CHOICE? Let’s see… “stopping” a killer under all the circumstances involved here, which resulted in the serious harm to NINE innocents, was the right choice? I’m on the wrong planet it seems. Beam me up Scotty.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    So… most everyone who is anyone (including the Mayor of NYC) is saying these cops did the “right” thing and had no choice… no choice? They are saying that they had to shoot the guy on this crowded sidewalk (lotsa people all around), because he had a “gun in their face.” Not only did they “shoot” the guy, by the number of bullets sent wherever, they made swiss cheese outa the guy (10 rounds I believe is what is reported that impacted his body at various locations). With those rounds, plus how many ever additional rounds that “missed” and went astray, it seems those cops just couldn’t stop pulling the trigger. .. no trigger discipline whatsoever it would seem. But… as most everyone is saying… they had no choice… really? NO CHOICE? And more than that, some are lauding those cops and saying they made the RIGHT choice… really? THE RIGHT CHOICE? Let’s see… “stopping” a killer under all the circumstances involved here, which resulted in the serious harm to NINE innocents, was the right choice? I’m on the wrong planet it seems. Beam me up Scotty.
    By the video I saw it looked like one officer hit his mark accurately, the other officer high tailed it and was shooting one handed while running away.

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    Regular Member DangerClose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If they had fewer bullets, MAYBE, just maybe they would have taken better aim. Until they can account for their rounds, actions, maybe NYPD should be limited to single shot firearms, or at least back to revolvers.
    I don't see how they may have needed fewer shots since these are highly trained officers who are trained by the state to carry guns. Unlike the peasants and commoners who can't carry there basically no matter what they do.

    Though I do think it's obvious that if Mayor Bloomberg doesn't want innocent people to get hurt with guns, then the clear thing to do is ban the police from carrying guns just like they are already banned from the commoners and peasants.

    Nine people just got hurt by guns. It's obvious NYC needs more gun control. Ban guns from the NYPD. It's the logical thing to do, Mayor Bloomberg.
    Last edited by DangerClose; 08-26-2012 at 12:15 PM.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Back in the 1870s or 1880s, opposing funding for arming the State Militia with rifles, a governor of the State of New York proposed that if they needed to be armed AT ALL, they could be armed with CLUBS.

    That may well be the best solution to the judgment and marksmanship deficits in the NYPD.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    'nuff said... :-)

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    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Perhaps this is Bloomberg's version of "Fast and Furious." He could have entitled it "Friggin Feckless." Rules of engagement might include "in case of officers having to discharge their weapons, ensure they empty their clips with reckless abandon so as to demonstrate to the people how deadly firearms really are" (in the wrong hands, of course).

    I like the idea of the late 1800's mayor: "Give 'em clubs."
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Perhaps this is Bloomberg's version of "Fast and Furious." He could have entitled it "Friggin Feckless." Rules of engagement might include "in case of officers having to discharge their weapons, ensure they empty their clips with reckless abandon so as to demonstrate to the people how deadly firearms really are" (in the wrong hands, of course).

    I like the idea of the late 1800's mayor: "Give 'em clubs."
    (THUMBS UP!!) Clubs... I am betting they would still find a way to screw that up...
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
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    Haha, I get it!

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    Regular Member usmcmustang's Avatar
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    When a reporter asked Mayor Bloomberg whether the police had acted appropriately by shooting an armed murder suspect, he angrily replied, “Let me ask you this, if somebody pointed a gun at you and you had a gun in your pocket, what would you do? I think that answers the question.” Bloomberg indirectly makes a very important point. The phrase “gun violence” gets tossed around quite a bit, but there’s a problem–the expression blurs the distinction between the use of a gun for self-defense and the use of a gun to commit a crime, such as theft, rape, and murder.

    Mayor Bloomberg regularly advocates gun control measures, but according to his statements to the reporter, he’ll support your right to use a gun in self-defense, but, curiously, put you in jail should "you have a gun in your pocket." Hmm.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usmcmustang View Post
    When a reporter asked Mayor Bloomberg whether the police had acted appropriately by shooting an armed murder suspect, he angrily replied, “Let me ask you this, if somebody pointed a gun at you and you had a gun in your pocket, what would you do? I think that answers the question.” Bloomberg indirectly makes a very important point. The phrase “gun violence” gets tossed around quite a bit, but there’s a problem–the expression blurs the distinction between the use of a gun for self-defense and the use of a gun to commit a crime, such as theft, rape, and murder.

    Mayor Bloomberg regularly advocates gun control measures, but according to his statements to the reporter, he’ll support your right to use a gun in self-defense, but, curiously, put you in jail should "you have a gun in your pocket." Hmm.
    I would have replied:

    "I'd get murdered, because thanks to you and your predecessors, I CAN'T have a gun in my pocket, and being of lesser value as a human being than you, I don't have a phalanx of armed bodyguards behind which to hide."

    Talk about a "Kodak moment"...
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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