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Thread: All 9 bystanders shot by NYPD; great reason why not to carry

  1. #1
    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    All 9 bystanders shot by NYPD; great reason why not to carry

    Insane reasoning from Hoplophobe NYT Gail Collins:

    Arms and the Duck
    We had a shooting near the Empire State Building.

    Nine passers-by were also wounded, ...

    In 2008, Al Baker reported in The Times that the accuracy rate for New York City officers firing in the line of duty was 34 percent.

    And these are people trained for this kind of crisis. The moral is that if a lunatic starts shooting, you will not be made safer if your fellow average citizens are carrying concealed weapons.

    We are never going to have a sane national policy on guns until the gun advocates give up on the fantasy that the best protection against armed psychopaths bent on random violence is regular people with loaded pistols on their belts.

    Is there anything the other side can concede in return?

    Well, gun control advocates have to be careful not to say anything that demeans hunting.
    Hay Gail, the Second Amendment is not about duck hunting.

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    Bystanders

    The NYPD is NOT trained for this type of thing. Historically their firearms training is woefully lacking. In response to criticism concerning the low hit percentage generated in gunfights (11% at that time) they replied to the critic that he was wrong--their hit percentage was a whopping 16%!! Only one round in six hit its intended target!! Today--it is not any better we see. Lawsuits galore will be generated from this--and there is Supreme Court precedent supporting those lawsuits--inadequate/infrequent training in spite of historic indications of the need for much more training. See Christine Hansen et al v FBI. There are other SCOTUS decisions which say that firearms training should/must be at least four times a year--and realistic.

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    Regular Member Lasjayhawk's Avatar
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    Anybody else get the idea NYC would be safer if LAC's were allowed to carry handguns and LEO's weren't?

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    Regular Member tjkruck's Avatar
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    Re: All 9 bystanders shot by NYPD; great reason why not to carry

    34% holy child of mary how small are the targets they are using

    Carry on

  5. #5
    Regular Member Lasjayhawk's Avatar
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    Official NYPD training target: http://www.gunfun.com/cart/barn-12150.html

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasjayhawk View Post
    Official NYPD training target: http://www.gunfun.com/cart/barn-12150.html
    Ha! That was funny. But I was expecting it to be the BG guy in the middle for 10 points, where as the bystanders standing around only worth 3 points each.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    And yet Bloomberg continues to deny/evade a MAJOR "shortcoming" re: this incident: The outrageously incompetent and unprofessional "performance" by the NYPD.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Ya know, them NYPD officers just love throwing lead every which way.

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    Regular Member sjcea's Avatar
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    Re: All 9 bystanders shot by NYPD; great reason why not to carry

    Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

    Sent from my Galaxy S///

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    How about not shoot 10 people? How about being held to the same standards you and I would be held to?

    The NYPD are far from innocent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjcea View Post
    Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

    Sent from my Galaxy S///
    Nice first post, you work fo the NYPD I take it? And what would I expect them to do? Well for starters I would expect them to not shoot 9 innocent bystanders. And no, they didn't make the best of the situation they had, if they had done that then they wouldn't of shot 9 bystanders.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjcea View Post
    Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

    Sent from my Galaxy S///
    I expect them to only shoot their target, to be trained and responsible enough to only fire the needed rounds to stop the suspect. Not to pray and spray shooting innocent victims. If the suspect could shoot and kill his intended target on busy streets it is clear that the NYPD should have been able to. The police officers should be held accountable.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Sixteen rounds fired. Three people hit. Six others struck with ricochet/fragmentation as bullets hit hard backstop. Rule 2 and Rule 4 violations.

    And to keep the record straight, the BG shot & killed his only victim before taking the short walk to come outside the Empire State Building. The BG never threatened, directly or indirectly, any folks on the street.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Sixteen rounds fired. Three people hit. Six others struck with ricochet/fragmentation as bullets hit hard backstop. Rule 2 and Rule 4 violations.

    And to keep the record straight, the BG shot & killed his only victim before taking the short walk to come outside the Empire State Building. The BG never threatened, directly or indirectly, any folks on the street.

    stay safe.
    Stop it with the facts! "MASS SHOOTING at Empire State Building: 2 dead 10 wounded!" sounds better.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member The Airframer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Stop it with the facts! "MASS SHOOTING at Empire State Building: 2 dead 10 wounded!" sounds better.
    Mwahhahahah! We wouldn't want facts to get in the way of an opportunity to pass stricter gun laws!

    These "LEO's" need to be held accountable to the same standards as LAC's would be if we sprayed innocent bystanders in a justifiable shoot.
    It's better to have it and not need it then to need it and not have it...

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    "When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do?" -- sjcea

    I expect them to hit the target (the perp), and only the target (the perp).

    Period.

    I also expect that of myself...
    Last edited by cloudcroft; 08-26-2012 at 11:13 AM.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Our newest apologist even said:
    on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning
    Much as I agree that the police were grossly negligent in ignoring what was behind their target, to the best of my understanding if someone is injured or dies as the result of the commission of a crime, the blame for that is on the person committing the crime.

    If the murderer in this case had survived the 16 rounds fired by police, he would have been charged with the injuries to bystanders, because his actions caused the situation. Sadly, the negligent police officers & department (which handled their training) probably won't be held accountable.

    Heck, even the most basic NRA safety course includes the rule "know your target & what's beyond it".
    Aside from that, looking at the video they were fairly close - maybe 15'? - and couldn't hit a person?
    They need to take Yellow Cat's Golfing with Glocks course.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    It appears that one officer is standing his ground and hitting the suspect, while the other officer is shooting while running away one handed. He does not appear to be aiming in the least, just shooting wildly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjcea View Post
    Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

    Sent from my Galaxy S///
    I expect, with all their training, paid for with the taxes from the citizens, that they at least hit their target, and know their backdrop. Somebody probably had a good shot, while somebody did NOT.

    If you can't take the shot without endangering others, you DON'T take the shot. And yes I'm former law enforcement, and that's how I was trained.
    Last edited by FallonJeeper; 08-27-2012 at 05:05 PM.
    Hoka hey

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    Quote Originally Posted by sjcea View Post
    The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with ...
    Yes, inadequate training, follow-through, and modified handguns that make it nearly impossible to shoot accurately because they have inadequate training.

    Come on, twelve pounds of trigger pull on their pistols? No wonder they did a magazine dump on their intended target. With one's handgun being wobbled this way and that, the only way you could possibly hit your target would be by firing as many rounds as possible.

    Of course, if any of us did a magazine dump on a perp, we'd be crucified, and rightfully so.

    Twelve pound trigger pull to keep them from shooting themselves 'cause they can't keep their booger hook off their bang switch.

    Geez, even my wife knows that - and she doesn't shoot.

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    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sjcea View Post
    Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

    Sent from my Galaxy S///
    I expect them to train more than twice a year. Hell, I expect them to train more than once a month. I expect them to train at distance, under stress, shooting one handed, shooting one handed with an agitated police dog in the other hand (if they're a K9 unit). I expect them to train drawing an firing as quickly as possible. Sadly, it seems that police don't do much, if any of this.

    I fully appreciate the fact that the police officers had to return fire in this situation. I'm not debating that. But their ability to do so effectively is being called into question by all here.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    I expect them to train more than twice a year. Hell, I expect them to train more than once a month. I expect them to train at distance, under stress, shooting one handed, shooting one handed with an agitated police dog in the other hand (if they're a K9 unit). I expect them to train drawing an firing as quickly as possible. Sadly, it seems that police don't do much, if any of this.

    I fully appreciate the fact that the police officers had to return fire in this situation. I'm not debating that. But their ability to do so effectively is being called into question by all here.
    What are you simple? J/K Issued tickets bring in between 4-7.4 Billion dollars a year for the US governments. (Speed taxes)
    We can't afford to waste time training when we can be out fleecing the sheep.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    The reason Gail doesn't want armed citizens is because she knows that if there was a gun fight where cops were missing and hitting innocent bystanders, the bystanders might just starting shooting back at her precious cops!

    Actually, if the facts bear out that everybody was wounded by police misses, I'd say we have a strong argument for bystanders considering that a cop reaching for a gun may constitute justified lethal force. No, I'm serious! In many states, citizens are allowed to come to the defense of others. If citizen A sees a cop drawing a gun in NYC, I would be willing to seriously consider that him shooting the cop was justified lethal force in defense of citizen B--the innocent bystander. If I was on the jury trying citizen A for shooting the cop, I would be willing to seriously consider a "defense of others" argument.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Lasjayhawk's Avatar
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    I hope it doesn't come to that. I REALLY do.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Note to self.....again.....don't go to NYC.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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