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All 9 bystanders shot by NYPD; great reason why not to carry

Repeater

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
2,498
Location
Richmond, Virginia, USA
Insane reasoning from Hoplophobe NYT Gail Collins:

Arms and the Duck
We had a shooting near the Empire State Building.

Nine passers-by were also wounded, ...

In 2008, Al Baker reported in The Times that the accuracy rate for New York City officers firing in the line of duty was 34 percent.

And these are people trained for this kind of crisis. The moral is that if a lunatic starts shooting, you will not be made safer if your fellow average citizens are carrying concealed weapons.

We are never going to have a sane national policy on guns until the gun advocates give up on the fantasy that the best protection against armed psychopaths bent on random violence is regular people with loaded pistols on their belts.

Is there anything the other side can concede in return?

Well, gun control advocates have to be careful not to say anything that demeans hunting.

Hay Gail, the Second Amendment is not about duck hunting.
 

4sooth

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2006
Messages
126
Location
, Louisiana, USA
Bystanders

The NYPD is NOT trained for this type of thing. Historically their firearms training is woefully lacking. In response to criticism concerning the low hit percentage generated in gunfights (11% at that time) they replied to the critic that he was wrong--their hit percentage was a whopping 16%!! Only one round in six hit its intended target!! Today--it is not any better we see. Lawsuits galore will be generated from this--and there is Supreme Court precedent supporting those lawsuits--inadequate/infrequent training in spite of historic indications of the need for much more training. See Christine Hansen et al v FBI. There are other SCOTUS decisions which say that firearms training should/must be at least four times a year--and realistic.
 

Lasjayhawk

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Jul 21, 2012
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Location
Las Vegas
Anybody else get the idea NYC would be safer if LAC's were allowed to carry handguns and LEO's weren't? :banghead:
 

sjcea

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Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
8
Location
PA
Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

Sent from my Galaxy S///
 

Jack House

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Jun 12, 2010
Messages
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I80, USA
How about not shoot 10 people? How about being held to the same standards you and I would be held to?

The NYPD are far from innocent.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

Sent from my Galaxy S///

Nice first post, you work fo the NYPD I take it? And what would I expect them to do? Well for starters I would expect them to not shoot 9 innocent bystanders. And no, they didn't make the best of the situation they had, if they had done that then they wouldn't of shot 9 bystanders.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

Sent from my Galaxy S///

I expect them to only shoot their target, to be trained and responsible enough to only fire the needed rounds to stop the suspect. Not to pray and spray shooting innocent victims. If the suspect could shoot and kill his intended target on busy streets it is clear that the NYPD should have been able to. The police officers should be held accountable.
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
Sixteen rounds fired. Three people hit. Six others struck with ricochet/fragmentation as bullets hit hard backstop. Rule 2 and Rule 4 violations.

And to keep the record straight, the BG shot & killed his only victim before taking the short walk to come outside the Empire State Building. The BG never threatened, directly or indirectly, any folks on the street.

stay safe.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Sixteen rounds fired. Three people hit. Six others struck with ricochet/fragmentation as bullets hit hard backstop. Rule 2 and Rule 4 violations.

And to keep the record straight, the BG shot & killed his only victim before taking the short walk to come outside the Empire State Building. The BG never threatened, directly or indirectly, any folks on the street.

stay safe.

Stop it with the facts! "MASS SHOOTING at Empire State Building: 2 dead 10 wounded!" sounds better.
 

The Airframer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2012
Messages
171
Location
Virginia Beach
Stop it with the facts! "MASS SHOOTING at Empire State Building: 2 dead 10 wounded!" sounds better.

Mwahhahahah! We wouldn't want facts to get in the way of an opportunity to pass stricter gun laws!

These "LEO's" need to be held accountable to the same standards as LAC's would be if we sprayed innocent bystanders in a justifiable shoot.
 

cloudcroft

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 13, 2007
Messages
1,908
Location
El Paso, TX (formerly Colorado Springs, CO)
"When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do?" -- sjcea

I expect them to hit the target (the perp), and only the target (the perp).

Period.

I also expect that of myself...
 
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MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Our newest apologist even said:
on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning

Much as I agree that the police were grossly negligent in ignoring what was behind their target, to the best of my understanding if someone is injured or dies as the result of the commission of a crime, the blame for that is on the person committing the crime.

If the murderer in this case had survived the 16 rounds fired by police, he would have been charged with the injuries to bystanders, because his actions caused the situation. Sadly, the negligent police officers & department (which handled their training) probably won't be held accountable.

Heck, even the most basic NRA safety course includes the rule "know your target & what's beyond it".
Aside from that, looking at the video they were fairly close - maybe 15'? - and couldn't hit a person?
They need to take Yellow Cat's Golfing with Glocks course.
 

WalkingWolf

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Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
[video=youtube;EYWgrHwrlf8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYWgrHwrlf8[/video]

It appears that one officer is standing his ground and hitting the suspect, while the other officer is shooting while running away one handed. He does not appear to be aiming in the least, just shooting wildly.
 

FallonJeeper

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
576
Location
Fallon, NV
Ignorance over the subject is not becoming of anyone. The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with and with a mayor such as they have! Crime in NYC is way way down from what it has been in years past ( way before Bloomburg) especially compared to so many other cities. They made the best of the situation they had simple as that. When the perp turns and points his weapon toward police, what would you expect them to do? And on an ultra crowded city block. People are everywhere, especially during rush hour at that time of the morning!

Sent from my Galaxy S///

I expect, with all their training, paid for with the taxes from the citizens, that they at least hit their target, and know their backdrop. Somebody probably had a good shot, while somebody did NOT.

If you can't take the shot without endangering others, you DON'T take the shot. And yes I'm former law enforcement, and that's how I was trained.
 
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Statkowski

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2006
Messages
1,141
Location
Cherry Tree (Indiana County), Pennsylvania, USA
The NYPD for the most part does an excellent job especially with what they are given to work with ...
Yes, inadequate training, follow-through, and modified handguns that make it nearly impossible to shoot accurately because they have inadequate training.

Come on, twelve pounds of trigger pull on their pistols? No wonder they did a magazine dump on their intended target. With one's handgun being wobbled this way and that, the only way you could possibly hit your target would be by firing as many rounds as possible.

Of course, if any of us did a magazine dump on a perp, we'd be crucified, and rightfully so.

Twelve pound trigger pull to keep them from shooting themselves 'cause they can't keep their booger hook off their bang switch.

Geez, even my wife knows that - and she doesn't shoot.
 
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