View Poll Results: Is LEA firearms training overall:

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  • Outstanding

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  • Better than most

    1 3.57%
  • Sufficient

    2 7.14%
  • Sadly lacking

    25 89.29%
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Thread: Armed Citizen vs. LEO Proficiencies

  1. #1
    Regular Member SFCRetired's Avatar
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    Armed Citizen vs. LEO Proficiencies

    Disclaimer: This is not, repeat NOT, an attempt to cop-bash or to solicit cop-bashing.

    After having read the account of the shooting (several different sources) of the police shooting in NYC and having read several other accounts of police firing their weapons and either not hitting their intended target or hitting one or more innocent bystanders, I am beginning to question who is better trained to use deadly force.

    It appears to me, judging by the people I know (and not including myself), that most responsible armed citizens put in much more range time and expend far more ammunition than do the majority of police officers. Again, this is my perception and may, or may not, be accurate.

    I would like to hear responses from as many as possible on this and especially from different regions of the country. FWIW, I sincerely hope my perception is wrong, but I haven't been able to find enough information to really form a different opinion.
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    Context Not Training

    I don't believe the issue is training I believe it is one of environment. The typical armed citizen encounter is between 2, or more, persons in very close proximity to eachother. ID'ing the BG while happening quickly it certainly is positive. In other words the person threatening you is typically ID'ing themselves through thier actions and is usually within 7 feet of you. No need to take much account of environment, no time or room. Just shoot the bastard in front of you.

    The typical police encounter involves arriving into mayhem in progress. multiple People running, screaming, perhaps shoots being fired. They must ID the BG(s), take cover, assess the surounding area and return fire (while not hitting the bystanders). Wow, pretty tought circumstances.

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran Schlitz's Avatar
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    I was shooting at a local range when two officers arrived for some target practice. (they had mistaken me for an officer O_o)

    Anywho - they were god awful... This doesn't effect my perception of all officers, just because these two were bad. What purpose would the poll on this thread serve? A couple of shmucks on an internet forum aren't going to be able to decide how proficient officers are at shooting compared to them. Of course everyone is going to give them a 1/10.
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  4. #4
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    hey a least they were praticing
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    I don't believe this poll has much to do with target practice.

    I took it as an over all. They use their firearms much more than what is really required. Since they have no liability when they cause death and destruction they don't seem to care as much.

    Cops will take shots that most of us would not waste ammo on. 3 shots into a dog when the cop has no legal business there....
    One into a woman who surprised them on her back porch. Too man into man who pull out a wallet in NY.......

    It would be interesting to check their trigger control vs an armed citizen's trigger control on the same course.
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    Five votes for "sadly lacking?" Really?

    Our officers here in the Springs get biannual training including both at the firing range as well as in a very cool computerized scenario lab. I WISH my own training was as good as theirs.

    On the flip side, I believe the single-most important factor is that LEOs are taught to wade in and engage, whereas we're taught to disengage when possible. That explains their higher rate of wrongful death shooting more than how much practice they get on the range.
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  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Five votes for "sadly lacking?" Really?

    Our officers here in the Springs get biannual training including both at the firing range as well as in a very cool computerized scenario lab. I WISH my own training was as good as theirs.

    On the flip side, I believe the single-most important factor is that LEOs are taught to wade in and engage, whereas we're taught to disengage when possible. That explains their higher rate of wrongful death shooting more than how much practice they get on the range.
    Practice does not count. IIRC the saying correctly, only perfect practice makes perfect performance.

    Cops should be at least as good as (to pick some arbitrary standard) the folks at the bottom of the top quarter of the average local practical shooting group/club. Engaging as opposed to disengaging has nothing to do with proficiency with your tool, whether it be some Tupperwear Wonder-9 or a Stradivarius violin. It has everything to do with needing to be able to decide that since you do not have a safe shot the notion of "suppressive fire" might also be unsafe. Wading in lessens the distance to the target, which also means the angle to the target is sharper. Those factors should result in smaller misses - if you were sufficiently proficient in unaimed stress shooting. But the firing range usually does not support/allow that sort of training. Computerized scenario labs may allow for/support that but how many scenarios are set up to elicit those real-world responses?

    To close - if the cops in The Springs can engage i the sort of training you describe, and achieve the sort of results I have arbitrarily set up, then why are the rest of the law enforcement agencies not doing the same? In most of the country east of the Mississippi pooling funds and sharing the equipment is feasable. Get west of the Sierrias and again it should be fairly easy. That leaves the middle of the country to figure out. Regional centers and creative sharing of personnel to cover those away at training might be possible. (See, if I can think of some workable solutions surely those behind the big desks should be able to do so.)

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  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    If there is one thing I have come to believe from all the time I've spent studying cop shooting dash cam/security cam footage, it's that different PD's have different protocols for shooting. What's more, few like to talk about their shooting methods of choice publicly, so you'd never really know unless you FOIA'd it.

    Taking a look at the NYPD specifically, I read that in decades past they issued double barrel shotguns because many of their cops couldn't remember where the slide release was located on a pump. Gotta wonder how much has changed for them between then and now.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Qualifying once a month at a stationary target, after having coffee and donuts, is not training. Stress training and night shooting should be requirements. Training does not always relate to live fire either, situational training should be done at least once a month.

    Unfortunately depts rely on spec units, but they cannot be everywhere, but they get the best training while the street cop is ignored.

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    What ones has to do is compare apples to apples.

    Compareing the avg LEO shooter to the avg non LEO shooter.

    Compareing the good LEO shooters to the avg non LEO good shooters

    Compareing the great LEO shooters to avg non LEO great the shooters.

    I don't think one will see much differants in results.

    90 percent of LEOs and regular shooters don't paractice and are not very good shots. They handle there guns only when they have to.

    About 7 percent of LEOs and good shooters paractice some what more and are fairly good shots.

    About 3 percent of LEOs and non LEO shooters shoot a lot and are very good to great shots

    I seen a lot of avg LEO shooters and non LEO avg shooters that don't shoot fairly well.

    I seen a fair number of the 7 percenters in both.

    I seen the 3 percenters in both.

    We GUN people seem to think very body should have the time money and will power to shoot and become great shots.

    Unless as a LEO you are on SWAT or the pistol team if your dept has one. You have to spend your own time and money to become a great shot. Most Departments just don't hand out unlimited ammo and paid range time. It is a money thing.

    Departments are more then willing just to have you meet the min. standards what ever they are. Most LEOs are more then happy to just meet them. Just like most non LEOs are more then happy just to shoot every little.

    In a perfect world all LEOs would be and non LEOs shooters would be great shots but we don't live in a perfect world.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Ammo and training are allot cheaper than paying multimillion dollar settlements.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Ammo and training are allot cheaper than paying multimillion dollar settlements.

    Try telling that to management. I have.

    They are all then more willing to play the odds.

    A 10000 man department and extra 500 dollars per week to bring them up to being great shots. = 5000000 dollars.

    Yea it takes a lot of range time and ammo = a lot of money.

    Every hr on the range/training is one less hr patroling,investigateing ect. do you cover those hrs with some one else or do you leave them go uncovered.

    Are the tax payers willing to come up with it. Most complain about the pay package now.
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  13. #13
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    Try telling that to management. I have.

    They are all then more willing to play the odds.

    A 10000 man department and extra 500 dollars per week to bring them up to being great shots. = 5000000 dollars.

    Yea it takes a lot of range time and ammo = a lot of money.

    Every hr on the range/training is one less hr patroling,investigateing ect. do you cover those hrs with some one else or do you leave them go uncovered.

    Are the tax payers willing to come up with it. Most complain about the pay package now.
    I don't think it would be that expensive.

    Stress/reaction training does not need to be live fire training, in fact it probably is better if it is not. The problem is not the officers accuracy, it is how they react to stress(keeping a level head). This means putting the officers in controlled stressful training. This is more like the training the fire dept gives to recruits. Regular physical fitness training should also be a part of every dept, especially a dept like NYPD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    What ones has to do is compare apples to apples.

    Compareing the avg LEO shooter to the avg non LEO shooter.

    Compareing the good LEO shooters to the avg non LEO good shooters

    Compareing the great LEO shooters to avg non LEO great the shooters.

    I don't think one will see much differants in results.

    90 percent of LEOs and regular shooters don't paractice and are not very good shots. They handle there guns only when they have to.

    About 7 percent of LEOs and good shooters paractice some what more and are fairly good shots.

    About 3 percent of LEOs and non LEO shooters shoot a lot and are very good to great shots

    I seen a lot of avg LEO shooters and non LEO avg shooters that don't shoot fairly well.

    I seen a fair number of the 7 percenters in both.

    I seen the 3 percenters in both.

    We GUN people seem to think very body should have the time money and will power to shoot and become great shots.

    Unless as a LEO you are on SWAT or the pistol team if your dept has one. You have to spend your own time and money to become a great shot. Most Departments just don't hand out unlimited ammo and paid range time. It is a money thing.

    Departments are more then willing just to have you meet the min. standards what ever they are. Most LEOs are more then happy to just meet them. Just like most non LEOs are more then happy just to shoot every little.

    In a perfect world all LEOs would be and non LEOs shooters would be great shots but we don't live in a perfect world.
    But the thing is, if this was the case why do only 2% of regular citizen shoots end in bystanders getting hit, but 11% of police shootings end in bystanders getting hurt? If the training/accuracy is roughly the same across both groups then there shouldn't be an almost 600% rise in the chances of a bystander getting shot if it's the police doing the shooting compared to a regular citizen.

  15. #15
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
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    It would also help if NYPD cops didn't have ridiculous "NY triggers." What are they something like 12 pounds? Where has this gotten them? Are there documented cases of the extra trigger weight being beneficial to a jittery cop?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    But the thing is, if this was the case why do only 2% of regular citizen shoots end in bystanders getting hit, but 11% of police shootings end in bystanders getting hurt? If the training/accuracy is roughly the same across both groups then there shouldn't be an almost 600% rise in the chances of a bystander getting shot if it's the police doing the shooting compared to a regular citizen.
    A large percentage of citizen shootings are not in public many are in the home. Less people around less chance of others getting hit.

    I really don't think the hit ratio in citizen shooting is that much differant. Citizens miss a lot also it just that there normally is less people around.

    There is differant dynamic between most police shootings and citizen shooting. Citizens just don't go running down the street trying to catch someone who just got done killing some one else.

    When a citizen shoots he knows who the bad guy is off the bat.

    The police have to figure it out when they get there.

    Just a lot of differant dynamics between police shootings and citizen shooting.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    It would also help if NYPD cops didn't have ridiculous "NY triggers." What are they something like 12 pounds? Where has this gotten them? Are there documented cases of the extra trigger weight being beneficial to a jittery cop?
    I don't consider 12 pounds that bad, maybe my fingers are stronger. I have a PA63, Russian guns are built with heavy trigger pulls on purpose. I killed a charging pit bull with it. Not one missed shot, NYPD problem is training. One officer lost his cool, and fired indiscriminately while running away, the other officer could be clearly seen hitting his mark, at point blank range.

    The officer that probably shot most if not all of the bystanders should have either took aim, or run, but not shooting wild west style while running away. I will be interested if they disclose the ballistic reports, I would be willing to bet that all the bystanders injuries came from one gun.

  18. #18
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Five votes for "sadly lacking?" Really?

    Our officers here in the Springs get biannual training including both at the firing range as well as in a very cool computerized scenario lab. I WISH my own training was as good as theirs.

    On the flip side, I believe the single-most important factor is that LEOs are taught to wade in and engage, whereas we're taught to disengage when possible. That explains their higher rate of wrongful death shooting more than how much practice they get on the range.
    there is something to be said about this. how many LEO, know that they are justified in a shooting be fore they even engage, and the fact that they do not have to worry about bystanders

    there is a lot of spray and pray in LE. how accountable would they actually be held (in general terms), if a bystander gets hit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    there is something to be said about this. how many LEO, know that they are justified in a shooting be fore they even engage, and the fact that they do not have to worry about bystanders

    there is a lot of spray and pray in LE. how accountable would they actually be held (in general terms), if a bystander gets hit.

    How accountable they are depends a lot on the state law where they are working. 50 states 50 laws and it depends on each case and each situation. The greater the danger to the public stopping a mass murderer is more important then stopping a shop lifter that is threating the officer with a knife.

    The officer most likely would get more of a break in hitting a bystander stopping someone murdering others, then hitting a bystander shooting at the shoplifter just threating the officer to every thing in between.

    Yes it would be nice if every officer was a great shot and very tactical. Officers are human its a job a lot of departments just require the min in firearms training. Some are openly anti gun.

    The truth is a very large percentage of officers never fire their weapons in anger.


    Training costs lots of money every dept has only so much to spend. Every dept head has their hands out to get their share.

    Most officers don't go around saying heck if I get into a gun fight Iam going to see how many bystanders I can get.

    Most dread dealing with a good shooting let alone one that the wrong people get shot.


    There are a lot of things that can help you survive,training, competition, personal experience. They all come into play but none of them are the same (unless you been there before)as knowning some one could or is trying to kill you or others in a spilt second if you don't act.

    I am sure very one of the complainers on how the officers handled this shooting. Could have would have done a better job and fired less rounds.

    If they have survided a personal attack where some one was trying to kill them or do them great harm.

    If they have done so doing a better job in a simular situation my hat is off to them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    But the thing is, if this was the case why do only 2% of regular citizen shoots end in bystanders getting hit, but 11% of police shootings end in bystanders getting hurt?
    We've mentioned this more than once in this thread, including: "I believe the single-most important factor is that LEOs are taught to wade in and engage, whereas we're taught to disengage when possible. That explains their higher rate of wrongful death shooting more than how much practice they get on the range."
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    I remember another case from (I thing) Utah State Police. Two man unit pulls over a Suburban(?- some large SUV), driver comes out shooting. Officers fire something like 32 rounds and don't even hit the vehicle!

    It's easy to armchair quarterback the NYPD shooting, but truth is there was no 'good' choice available to the officers; only 'bad' or 'worse.' In such a densely populated area, it would be almost impossible NOT to have innocents injured. I'm actually somewhat suprised no fatalities!
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  22. #22
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    We've mentioned this more than once in this thread, including: "I believe the single-most important factor is that LEOs are taught to wade in and engage, whereas we're taught to disengage when possible. That explains their higher rate of wrongful death shooting more than how much practice they get on the range."
    One of the officers did disengage, the problem was he was shooting wildly while doing it. I am having a hard time with a 1911 jamming, it may have, but I think that is the standard when the suspect that just became swiss cheese does not return fire. IMO he could have been despondent, and committing suicide by cop. IMO they were justified in using deadly force, BUT not justified in shooting wildly as one officer did, the other officer was clearly focused on his target, and the suspect went down quickly once he engaged. I doubt that any of the shots fired by the fleeing officer hit the suspect.

    One officer should get a medal, the other desk duty.

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    The response was not text book perfect for sure.

    I have seen plenty of jams in 1911s as with other types/brands stuff happens.

    Even if if didn't jam some one who just got done murdering someone starts pointing his firearm is going to get shot.

    Waiting for them to fire well get you very dead.


    It was an Ohio case I watch the dash cam video a couple of times. The good guys and bad guys both fired many rounds none of them hit anything. Piss poor shooting by both sides.

    You want to see a poor hit to miss ratio look at the military thousands of rounds fired per hit.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    You want to see a poor hit to miss ratio look at the military thousands of rounds fired per hit.
    Easy now.

    You wanna talk about lack of training, the military takes top ranking in that department. Sad but true, I used to fire annually on M16 (usually some POS that's been used/abused), but new regs say that I dont fire unless deploying. Since I've been in jobs that dont deploy, I havent shot in over 5 years. And I only have to hit 50% of the time to "qualify".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    The response was not text book perfect for sure.


    You want to see a poor hit to miss ratio look at the military thousands of rounds fired per hit.
    I am not sure what your MOS was or if you served, but for myself as a 11bravo and the many years that I have been in we go to the range min 10 times a year for a variety of training. The ammo was never in short supply either. So much so in some of my units the commander would force us to do "burn offs" with what ammo we have left over. Thank goodness, the higher-ranking NCO's in those units used that time for additional training that was not the normal by "the book" training. In most cases, those out of the box moments were better training than the training the commander wanted done. Now I will say many MOS that are not combat related do very little firearms training. Every year we had a very steady 9-10 month on average training to do list. State side I have seen very very accurate fire on targets moving and still paper targets, I have seen people who couldn't hit a damn thing. The very large majority had no problems making their mark when it counted.

    As for in actual combat I have seen very accurate fire and some very inaccurate fire, yet the goal has always been to get rounds down range as quickly as possible, but still being accurate. We want to put so much lead down range that the man we are shooting at would rather dig deeper into the ground then return fire on us, so we can move on his/her position to snuff their lights out without taking any casualties on our end. Having a ton of lead going down range on a terrorist is not a bad thing if it keeps us alive and stops them from firing at us. It’s not like COD where out intent is to get a near 100% hit ratio per bullet count, but kill more of them as quickly as possible so they don't get the opportunity to kill us.

    I will say there is a time for extremely accurate fire and there is a time to put a wall of lead so big heading towards a terrorists that their only way out of that firefight is a pine box or that nasty stained bed sheet. Getting shot at is never fun and my goal is to stop it ASAP(my first time getting shot at overseas on patrol I pissed myself because of how unnerving it was to have rounds zip pass my skull). If that means peppering a wall behind a target to hold him down or one of those rounds hits the SOB in the head and he was unable to return fire, I consider that a good hit ratio.
    Last edited by zack991; 08-28-2012 at 09:08 AM.
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