Grand Valley State University

scot623 · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
It is better to break some college ordinance born of ignorance and emotion than to die, unarmed with your gun in a "safe" .

You do realize advocating someone carry concealed in a college dorm or classroom isn't just violating "some college ordinance", it's actually against state law? Just flip over your CPL and read the li....oh, right. You don't have a CPL, sorry...I forgot that for a minute there. Here is the list just so you know.

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A DORMITORY OR CLASSROOM OF A COMMUNITY COLLEGE, COLLEGE, OR UNIVERSITY.

stainless1911 · Aug 27, 2012

scot623 said:
You do realize advocating someone carry concealed in a college dorm or classroom isn't just violating "some college ordinance", it's actually against state law? Just flip over your CPL and read the li....oh, right. You don't have a CPL, sorry...I forgot that for a minute there. Here is the list just so you know.

28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.
Sec. 5o.

(1) Subject to subsection (4), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

(a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

(b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

(c) A sports arena or stadium.

(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

(e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

(f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

(g) A hospital.

(h) A DORMITORY OR CLASSROOM OF A COMMUNITY COLLEGE, COLLEGE, OR UNIVERSITY.

When people complain "The law seems to just be helping the criminals!". This is what they are talking about.

SpringerXDacp · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
I do understand that the media reads this. Maybe they haven't fully considered that those who ban guns, those who make guns look bad, and those who are in agreement with their prohibition are in fact partially responsible for the deaths caused by the active shooters that their words and ACTIONS have been supporting. As long as we are politically correct, and follow the laws like a bunch of little ducklings, we have already lost.

It is better to break some college ordinance born of ignorance and emotion than to die, unarmed with your gun in a "safe" .

Anyone, anywhere, with three classes remaining, regardless if he or she is an undergrad or grad, who would risk expulsion by possession/carry on campus, should not not be in possession of firearms to begin with.

SpringerXDacp · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
When people complain "The law seems to just be helping the criminals!". This is what they are talking about.

I'm pretty sure we all agree that section 5o, is retarded at best. Most, if not all, of us know this section only exists as it was more or less a last stitch effort to appease the masses for shall issue. However, until the law is changed, it is what it is.

scot623 · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
When people complain "The law seems to just be helping the criminals!". This is what they are talking about.

You will not find anyone on this website who agrees with the law. Everyone here agrees PFZ's are killing zones. What you will find are people who are working to change it while not advocating breaking it. We wish you would join us.

stainless1911 · Aug 27, 2012

SpringerXDacp said:
Anyone, anywhere, with three classes remaining, regardless if he or she is an undergrad or grad, who would risk expulsion by possession/carry on campus, should not not be in possession of firearms to begin with.

How is it, that those who really realize the risks, and what it takes to maximize their chances of survival, (incl. graduation), the value and reason behind rights and exercising them, should be the very ones who would be denied those rights and their protection contrary to the constitution and the common sense that supports it?

Sadly it happens though, I was one of two who got up, and did something to try to keep the kids safe and our rights intact in the Waterford Schools, but I am the only one who isn't allowed to carry there.

Yes, my MI CPL was taken, but another is on the way. The trespass order still stands in that district only.

TheQ · Aug 27, 2012

Advocacy of illegal acts in this thread have been reported. Let's hope the mods do the right thing.

stainless1911 · Aug 27, 2012

scot623 said:
You will not find anyone on this website who agrees with the law. Everyone here agrees PFZ's are killing zones. What you will find are people who are working to change it while not advocating breaking it. We wish you would join us.

Im just showing the other side of the coin.

stainless1911 · Aug 27, 2012

TheQ said:
Advocacy of illegal acts in this thread have been reported. Let's hope the mods do the right thing.

This is a good example of why the system is so screwed up. Instead of finding criminals and prosecuting them because they themselves are criminals, we find some rule, or technicality, and use it to enact some agenda, or to back up some feeling, or some imagined "order" of things.

This is what got us in this mess to begin with.

You will do well in public office Phil, you'll fit right in.

SpringerXDacp · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
How is it, that those who really realize the risks, and what it takes to maximize their chances of survival, (incl. graduation), the value and reason behind rights and exercising them, should be the very ones who would be denied those rights and their protection contrary to the constitution and the common sense that supports it?

Sadly it happens though, I was one of two who got up, and did something to try to keep the kids safe and our rights intact in the Waterford Schools, but I am the only one who isn't allowed to carry there.

Yes, my MI CPL was taken, but another is on the way. The trespass order still stands in that district only.

I know it's easy for me to say but I wouldn't take the Waterford School thing too personally. I honestly believe their stance, as well as other school districts, as it pertains to firearms on school property, CC or OC, is/will be, the same for all. Well, except for a badge.

stainless1911 · Aug 27, 2012

Thanks. I get where you are coming from and appreciate that very much.

It frustrates me to no end, that I have a no trespass order, yet others can, do, have, and will still be able to carry there. I was trying to do the right thing, I went completely by the book, and this was the result. With me, this is often the case, which is one reason I frequently have a finger in the air. Im damned if I do, damned if I don't.

TheQ · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
You will do well in public office Phil, you'll fit right in.

There are numerous things I could say, but I'll take the higher ground and not say them. Be well, sir.

SpringerXDacp · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Thanks. I get where you are coming from and appreciate that very much.

It frustrates me to no end, that I have a no trespass order, yet others can, do, have, and will still be able to carry there. I was trying to do the right thing, I went completely by the book, and this was the result. With me, this is often the case, which is one reason I frequently have a finger in the air. Im damned if I do, damned if I don't.

I don't recall all of the details (comments & recordings), but I think it was more of a starting out on the right foot and/or timing thing than anything else. It's all water under the bridge now. Backing up to get a bit more on topic....

At times, we all have to close an eye or ear or even bite our tongues and choose our battles wisely. Much like Raggs who will choose to not violate campus policy by carrying in order to complete requirements for graduation. Much like Heavymetal chose to not carry in order to have a pleasant day at the park with the family. I really don't see where the choices/decisions by either one will stand in the way of freedoms or to gain/regain rights.

TheQ · Aug 27, 2012

Forum rule 15:

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

Tucker6900 · Aug 27, 2012

(15) WE ADVOCATE FOR THE 'LAW-ABIDING' ONLY: Posts advocating illegal acts of any kind are NOT welcome here. Even if you feel that a law is unconstitutional we do not break it, we repeal it or defeat it in the courts.

Cause thats the attitude that freed this country in the first place.

Dissent is the highest form of patriotism....Thomas Jefferson

griffin · Aug 27, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
Cause thats the attitude that freed this country in the first place.

On the other hand, they all knew that if they failed, they'd all be hanged. So there is that. I don't think we're at the "vote from the rooftops" stage yet.

TheQ · Aug 27, 2012

Let's just hope no one follows the illegal advice in this thread and them points to this thread as their motivation. Can we say RICO?

Ezerharden · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Im just showing the other side of the coin.

Only if the other side of the coin is irresponsible ignorance of thought and action. Oh wait, you don't take actions, just advocate them.

Shadow Bear · Aug 27, 2012

TheQ said:
I think it was plain to see that he was advocating someone carry a gun weather open or concealed. In the presence of a ordinance by a university or community college, that would clearly be illegal, yes?

Institutions of higher education are not covered by 750.237a

(b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.

(c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.

(d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

I believe you are only violating the student rules. If not a student, does not apply. The IHE has recourse against a student; the rest of us could be trespassed if they refused to leave.

davidmcbeth · Aug 27, 2012

stainless1911 said:
Better than helping an active shooter kill unarmed people.

Laws do not change until they are challenged.

lmfao

Yes but if a federal law is involved you need not violate the law ... you can file w/o breaking the law (most states require you to break the law).

Going after the state law via 2nd amend is a federal law issue; one that can be addressed w/o the need to break the law.

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