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Lord Hill Park - Snohomish County: Signs prohibiting firearms

geojohn

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
117
Location
Snohomish County, Washington, USA
I was at Lord Hill Park today and notice two separate signs prohibiting firearms.

One read: "No person shall possess or discharge any firearms, bow & arrow, air or gas weapons, sling shot, fireworks, or explosives SCC.22.16.090"

This is also available here (item #5): http://friendsoflordhill.org/park rules.htm

The other sign at the same trailhead read:

"LORD HILL
PARK RULES

NO FIRES
[checkmark] WEAPONS
[checkmark] MOTORIZED VEHICLES
[checkmark] ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES
[checkmark] OVERNIGHT CAMPING
"
etc.

Although I suppose those checkmarks could be interpreted as those things are allowed. :^)

I can post photos of the signs if anyone wants to see, but my question is has anyone here attempted to address this yet? I though Snohomish County finally stopped this type of thing after Seattle's failed attempts.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
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S. Kitsap, Washington state
They have the same signs as up on the centenial trail in Lake Stevens,

Under Chan v. Seattle They may not legally enforce such signage. Kitsap County Parks does the same thing, post signs saying firearms prohibited, yet the County Sheriff's deputies are well aware the signage (http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2009/may/31/theyre-breaking-the-law-8212-and-getting-away-it/) and have never harassed anyone to the best of my knowledge in Kitsap parks. I think that the county doesn't want to spend all the money to replace the signs, since open carry went mainstream I've noticed that the signs in Kitsap parks have been slowly changing to not include the firearms langauge so I think all their new signs don't prohibit firearms and are slowly replacing the illegal signage.
 
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geojohn

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Mar 17, 2010
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117
Location
Snohomish County, Washington, USA
I'm not really concerned about being harassed by misinformed LEOs. It's more that folks who visit the parks will get bad information, and if they see someone carrying, may be concerned unnecessarily, which could lead to unpleasantness.
 

Dave_pro2a

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, ,
I'm not really concerned about being harassed by misinformed LEOs. It's more that folks who visit the parks will get bad information, and if they see someone carrying, may be concerned unnecessarily, which could lead to unpleasantness.

If they herrass you, just remind them that they are violating the law by allowing their dogs off-leash. That is far more dangerous than OC (and more common at that park).

It seems Lords Hill has 'civilian patrols.' http://friendsoflordhill.org/volunteering.htm
 
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EMNofSeattle

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Aug 7, 2012
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S. Kitsap, Washington state
"Yeah hi, i'm with the civilian volunteer patrol, the sign says no weapons"

"yeah I'm a taxpayer legally utilizing this park, pi$$ off"

Is how I think that should be handled. I can just imagine these civilian volunteers calling the cops because somebody has a gun....

additional question, anyone here think Lord Hill qualifies as a "legitimate outdoor recreation area" for the purpose of 9.41.060?
 

EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
You know what would be fun to do, is for a few people from OCDO to sign up for the volunteer lord hill park patrol, and then make it an OC event, show up for our "patrols" while OCing and see what the other volunteers think about it :lol:
 

amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Snohomish County Council dropped their "Gun Ban in Parks" back in April of 2010. You won't get hassled by any Snohimish County Law Officer.

As for the "Citizen Patrols"? You mean a "George Zimmerman" type?
 

EMNofSeattle

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S. Kitsap, Washington state
Snohomish County Council dropped their "Gun Ban in Parks" back in April of 2010. You won't get hassled by any Snohimish County Law Officer.

As for the "Citizen Patrols"? You mean a "George Zimmerman" type?

Well as linked above there's this group called friends of lord hill park, they've posted an incorrect cite saying guns are banned in lord hill park and theyve organized volunteer patrols that go around reporting law violations to the parks department and LE.

The one time I was at LH park a friend and I were talking about guns and some guy came up and said "all guns are banned in this park" I'm wondering if he was of the civilian volunteers
 

Difdi

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Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
I'm curious:

What would the legal status be of applying a little strip of correction tape to the relevant illegal sections of the sign?

Normally, defacing a sign would be illegal, but if the part you're covering up is itself illegal...
 
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jsanchez

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May 9, 2010
Messages
499
Location
seattle
I went to Meadowdale park , its a mile and a half walk thru the woods down to the beach. When I got down to the beach there was a sign by the rangers house that said the same thing. Snohomish county code 22.16. I checked it out and they changed the code to follow state preemtion. So its not a problem to carry in the county parks. Just tell anyone who brings it up that the county has better things to do with there limited money than change outdated signs, and see what they say.
 

amlevin

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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
Well as linked above there's this group called friends of lord hill park, they've posted an incorrect cite saying guns are banned in lord hill park and theyve organized volunteer patrols that go around reporting law violations to the parks department and LE.

The one time I was at LH park a friend and I were talking about guns and some guy came up and said "all guns are banned in this park" I'm wondering if he was of the civilian volunteers

Let them "report" all they want. If they're civilians then I suggest they not try and stop anyone.

I would just ignore and go about my business. FWIW, if a "civilian" attempts to stop someone going about a lawful activity through physical contact or force wouldn't that constitute the crime of Battery or Assault? Now who get's reported for an illegal activity in a "Park"?
 

Freedom1Man

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Jan 14, 2012
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4,462
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Greater Eastside Washington
Let them "report" all they want. If they're civilians then I suggest they not try and stop anyone.

I would just ignore and go about my business. FWIW, if a "civilian" attempts to stop someone going about a lawful activity through physical contact or force wouldn't that constitute the crime of Battery or Assault? Now who get's reported for an illegal activity in a "Park"?

I can't find any battery laws in this state. The only ones I can find are assault.

As for stopping your motion I believe that is "imprisonment" there is more too it but if they tried to do a citizen's arrest or anything like that they would be committing a felony in that case.

As for assault you have a right to defend yourself. Take that as you will.
 
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amlevin

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Feb 16, 2007
Messages
5,937
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North of Seattle, Washington, USA
I can't find any battery laws in this state. The only ones I can find are assault.

In this State they're essentially the same. Some States consider "assault" to be the threat of violence and "battery" to be the actual violence.

Any unwanted "touching" or unlawful restraint can be considered an assault with varying degrees.

As for defending yourself, you can only use force proportional to the level of assault. Deadly force is only legal as a defense if you're in fear for your life.

Someone grabs you, feel free to push him away. He hits you, smack him back or hose his face with spray. Anything more, that puts you in indisputable fear for your life, cancel their Birth Certificate. Just be sure you can convince the authorities your actions were justified.

As for any "Citizen Patrol Person", I doubt they're going to do anything more than just annoy you, especially if they see you're armed.
 

geojohn

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Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Messages
117
Location
Snohomish County, Washington, USA
According to info at the link provided above regarding the civilian patrols: "Our mission is simply to report back to the rangers about any problems in the park. We also pass out maps to park users and answer any questions about the trails. We provide information on the importance of safety in a multi-use park. Patrol members must remain courteous to park users at all times. Patrol members must not engage in confrontational situations with park users. If a park user is trying to engage you in a confrontational situation, get away safely and alert the rangers."

So I think concern about them assaulting anyone should be minimal.
 
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