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Thread: Child Protection Services- Case Plan...

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Child Protection Services- Case Plan...

    Ok, here's my pickle. I have a 7 year old son that I was just awarded custody to from the courts due to his Mother being unfit. Keep in mind that she and I have been seperated for about 4 or 5 years now and live on different ends of town. I have since married and she has since had 2 more kids with a different man. Of course when we went to court over her "mis-haps" the judge got CPS involved. They now want to come to my house and ask a bunch of questions (again) about how I live and want me to agree to a "case plan"

    From what I can tell a case plan is a plan to get families "back on track", but my problem is that my family is already "on track". She is the one that screwed up but they want me to answer a bunch of questions and sign a bunch of papers saying that "I will be good" but I am already good!!! I want to refuse to answer the questions such as "do you keep guns in your home" or "Do you EVER drink" but I am afraid that the good ole 5th Amendement may screw me in this case. Has anyone ever dealt with this kind of situation or have any knowledge on what a dad is supposed to do?

    I don't want to shoot myself in the foot but I don't want to give up my rights either.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Ok, here's my pickle. I have a 7 year old son that I was just awarded custody to from the courts due to his Mother being unfit. Keep in mind that she and I have been seperated for about 4 or 5 years now and live on different ends of town. I have since married and she has since had 2 more kids with a different man. Of course when we went to court over her "mis-haps" the judge got CPS involved. They now want to come to my house and ask a bunch of questions (again) about how I live and want me to agree to a "case plan"

    From what I can tell a case plan is a plan to get families "back on track", but my problem is that my family is already "on track". She is the one that screwed up but they want me to answer a bunch of questions and sign a bunch of papers saying that "I will be good" but I am already good!!! I want to refuse to answer the questions such as "do you keep guns in your home" or "Do you EVER drink" but I am afraid that the good ole 5th Amendement may screw me in this case. Has anyone ever dealt with this kind of situation or have any knowledge on what a dad is supposed to do?

    I don't want to shoot myself in the foot but I don't want to give up my rights either.
    I'd contact a lawyer, family law is so complex and murky, not to mention CPS agents traditionally over step the bounds of their authority all the time. Seriously, you can get people's input and opinion on this, but you need LEGAL ADVICE from an attorney, and as all the disclaimers say.... nothing posted here qualifies.

    I'd find a competent attorney who practices family law and ask for a consultation. I can call a friend of mine who is an attorney in the practice of family law, but nothing I relay third person is legal advice either. and since this is in WA I'm talking about it may not even apply in your state. so an attorney is the best route for you.
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 08-27-2012 at 08:04 PM.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I'd contact a lawyer, family law is so complex and murky, not to mention CPS agents traditionally over step the bounds of their authority all the time. Seriously, you can get people's input and opinion on this, but you need LEGAL ADVICE from an attorney, and as all the disclaimers say.... nothing posted here qualifies.

    I'd find a competent attorney who practices family law and ask for a consultation. I can call a friend of mine who is an attorney in the practice of family law, but nothing I relay third person is legal advice either. and since this is in WA I'm talking about it may not even apply in your state. so an attorney is the best route for you.
    I know a lawyer is the best way to go. They just cost a few bucks that I really don't have. Honestly, I could just do what they want and make it easy for us all. After all I have nothing to hide and am not supossed to be the one being investigated to begin with. But "just doing what is easy" or doing "what they want" isn't really what we preach on here. This is my first non-gun related post but I guess I can't help but to think of the rights that I have learned about OC'ing (4th and 5th Admendment) that could be used for this situation too. Talk about a rock and a hard place...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I know a lawyer is the best way to go. They just cost a few bucks that I really don't have. Honestly, I could just do what they want and make it easy for us all. After all I have nothing to hide and am not supossed to be the one being investigated to begin with. But "just doing what is easy" or doing "what they want" isn't really what we preach on here. This is my first non-gun related post but I guess I can't help but to think of the rights that I have learned about OC'ing (4th and 5th Admendment) that could be used for this situation too. Talk about a rock and a hard place...
    Well my friend who is a family law attorney in WA state, once I was asking her "say in the future I wanted to adopt children, you think the state would look negatively upon gun ownership by the applicant" and her response was that "I would advise you have those guns locked down tighter then Fort Knox on the day they come to visit and inspect your house" see In WA CPS has relatively broad authority to determine what constitutes being "safe" for a child. Since you have already been awarded the child by court judgement, I don't see what authority CPS SHOULD have to prevent your kids from moving in with you. but I know nothing about the laws of your state. In WA I believe CPS has the authority to remove or prevent the movement of children into a house they feel is not safe, and then have you start again in the courts for custody, but I'm only telling you what an attorney told me in a casual (non-legal advice type) conversation.

    I think there's no shame in taking "the easy way" it's your choice, and if you can't find a lawyer you can afford I'd recommend dumping the beer down the toilet and locking your guns in a safe, once you have custody of the kids you can do whatever you want.
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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    As a father who wanted but didn't have any hope for custody (male, military, and stationed overseas), all I can say is that I'd gladly give up my 2A rights for greater parental rights, even though I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

    But that's me.

    On the other hand, I know of foster parents who're gun afficionados, so it's not always a deal-breaker. I think what they're looking for more than anything else is a safe, hygienic, and family-friendly environment. My advice: If you have guns, lock 'em up, and if you can afford a consulting fee, ask a family lawyer about firearms at home. If he says it's a deal-break in your area, then you have a decision to make between kids and guns.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    As a father who wanted but didn't have any hope for custody (male, military, and stationed overseas), all I can say is that I'd gladly give up my 2A rights for greater parental rights, even though I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

    But that's me.

    On the other hand, I know of foster parents who're gun afficionados, so it's not always a deal-breaker. I think what they're looking for more than anything else is a safe, hygienic, and family-friendly environment. My advice: If you have guns, lock 'em up, and if you can afford a consulting fee, ask a family lawyer about firearms at home. If he says it's a deal-break in your area, then you have a decision to make between kids and guns.
    It's not the guns themselves...I'm a man that loves his guns but I would get rid of them all for my kid. It's the idea of having to answer a million questions and be under the microscope when I shouldn't be. When they ask the questions such as "do you have guns in your home", "do you ever drink", "do you and your wife ever fight", "how do you displine your child" etc etc etc. I guess I feel that I shouldn't have to answer anything considering I'm not the parent that messed up and there is no reason to believe that I am a danger. Now if I were the parent at fault I could see having to answer these questions. But what is the difference of them coming to your home and asking you these questions for no reason? Keep in mind that he is 7 and this is the 5th time that I have been granted custody. Like I said, I just don't see a reason why I have to be treated like a criminal when I've done nothing wrong. But I will do what I have to do for him...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,,

    Red Flag Allert!!!
    7 hours,
    6 posts,
    3 posts are from you.

    No we find that you have had custody of your 7 year old son,,, Five times????
    Who had custody in between those times?
    Why have You lost custody,,, 4 times?
    I am sorry to say it, but,,,
    your situation sounds like,
    this is exactly when the help and protection of CPS is called for!!!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Red Flag Allert!!!
    7 hours,
    6 posts,
    3 posts are from you.

    No we find that you have had custody of your 7 year old son,,, Five times????
    Who had custody in between those times?
    Why have You lost custody,,, 4 times?
    I am sorry to say it, but,,,
    your situation sounds like,
    this is exactly when the help and protection of CPS is called for!!!
    You've never been in family court, have you?

  9. #9
    Regular Member Vitaeus's Avatar
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    Don't know much in regards to KY and family court, but the first hour with a lawyer is usually free or cheap. Get one, I have never heard of a CPS organization that doesn't cause folks issues.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Full disclosure - I used to be a CPS worker and was darned good at it.

    Is this visit mandated by the court order giving you custody? And if so, why is it coming after custody was awarded.

    Stand in front of your door and tell them to go away* until and unless they have a specific allegation** of abuse or neglect to investigate, or a court order that does not say they can bust in your door right then and there to snoop and poop. If they show up with a court order go to the courthouse and file an appeal. (Having an attorney may help wade through the morass of procedures, but since the rules are relaxed you can hand a note witten in crayon on a paper towel, saying "I appeal this. It is not right." and they should give you a hearing date.

    stay safe.

    * - they can come back with a cop and claim that the kid is in imminent danger of death or serious bodily imjury and seize him under Protective Custody - but you must have a hearing within 72 hours (not three business days). Do not resist the cop. Spend your energy telling the kid how stupid this is and that you plan to fix it.

    ** - CPS is going to lie to you and say they have a specific allegation. They are required to inform you generally what it is but are not required to tell you the specifics. The law protects the identity of whoever made the allegation.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member Lasjayhawk's Avatar
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    Anybody else think the concept of, if you want to have your own child you must give up constitutional rights just a bit scary?

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Red Flag Allert!!!
    7 hours,
    6 posts,
    3 posts are from you.

    No we find that you have had custody of your 7 year old son,,, Five times????
    Who had custody in between those times?
    Why have You lost custody,,, 4 times?
    I am sorry to say it, but,,,
    your situation sounds like,
    this is exactly when the help and protection of CPS is called for!!!
    Hoo, boy! Where to begin?

    Dude is appropriately upset and apparently never had to go through this before. His reaching out in controlled desperation bothers you why?

    In spite of what the model laws say, courts still give tremendous preference to placing kids under about 16 with the mother, no matter how horrible the situation. The courts think if they throw enough services at her that will overcome the fact that she is unfit.* So the kid is treated like a ping-pong ball.

    The appropriate presumption would be that life at mom's reached crisis so the kid was moved temporarily to live with dad. When the crisis abated most likely mom asked for the kid to be returned, but CPS might have asked for more time to throw more services at mom before admitting she will never provide a stable home.

    * Getting back to the comment that the court says mom is "unfit" - is that unfit to the point of termination of residual parental rights, or just chaos again? The OP does not need an attorney to petition for termination of parental rights, but it would probably make the exercise easier.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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  13. #13
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1245A Defender View Post
    Red Flag Allert!!!
    7 hours,
    6 posts,
    3 posts are from you.

    No we find that you have had custody of your 7 year old son,,, Five times????
    Who had custody in between those times?
    Why have You lost custody,,, 4 times?
    I am sorry to say it, but,,,
    your situation sounds like,
    this is exactly when the help and protection of CPS is called for!!!
    As the others have said, it is obvious that you have never been through this before. Pull your pants forward and look down in them. See that 1 inch piece of meat??? Thats called a penis and in family court if you have one of these the odds are against you already. I never "lost" custody. I was always awarded temporary custody for a month, 3 months, 6 months etc. After his pill snorting mother took a few classes the judge always went back to "shared custody" between his mother and I. A man can not win with these situations even if he has done nothing wrong.

    Skidmark is scaring the hell out of me with what he is saying because it is 100% true. Almost like he has been handling this case himself. It's funny that you claim to defend the 1,2,4,5 A but when I ask about the 4th and 5th you cast a harsh judement upon me based on limited information. Maybe one day you will walk in my shoes and then you see how f**ked up the system can be. See how upitty and self rightous you are then.

    And as Skidmark stated, they try to "fix" the offending parent. No matter how many times it takes......unless you are a man..then you're done for...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  14. #14
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post

    Is this visit mandated by the court order giving you custody? And if so, why is it coming after custody was awarded.
    No. I ask the lady at the court house about this and she told me to give her time to check on it. When they sent my court papers to me by mail she placed sticky note pads on the letter that said "no reason for them to inspect your house. You have custody and are not on trial" "Nothing on file says they need to do home inspection".

    UPDATE.
    The lady from CPS just left my home and it wasn't what I thought it would be. It was basically saying that I would allow supervised visitation every week, that I would make sure the mothers visits were supervised and if the mother appeared under the influence at visitation time that I wouldn't allow the visit to happen.

    I politly told the woman that I didn't need to sign a piece of paper saying that I would look out for the well being of my son because I have and always will do that.(I signed it but was making a point by that comment) She didn't ask to go through my home or try to get me to make a bunch of statements like I thought they would. So my 4th and 5th were not challenged.

    The CPS lady said that since this is an open case that they work with the custody parent so they are able to keep up with the progress of the child I fully understand that just because it went well today doesn't mean that it won't bite me in the ass tomorrow....but whats a man to do
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  15. #15
    Regular Member moonie's Avatar
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    Thankfully when I got custody of my now 13 year old daughter (she was 2 at the time) the mother got NO visitation and did nothing to try to get back custody. Her rights were terminated and thankfully she hasn't seen her since. This was an abuse case. I had 5 older children and an ex-wife and her husband backing me up in court.

  16. #16
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasjayhawk View Post
    Anybody else think the concept of, if you want to have your own child you must give up constitutional rights just a bit scary?
    ABSOLUTELY, There should be no problem with a parent owning guns and enjoying a beer every so often. See the problem is that courts usually assume that the mother is a better parent for children to live with (and from watching family court hearings and trials down at the local courthouse, that usually is the case, at least in the hearings I've watched) However the problem is that the court isn't looking at men and women on an equal plane, a mother really has to screw up big for the court to be inclined to give custody to daddy. and CPS seems to agree, which is why they'll look the other way if Mom drinks or has strangers coming in and out of the house all the time, but if Dad owns guns, *GASP* ARE THEY LOCKED? ARE THEY EVIL ASSAULT WEAPONS? ...... This may or may not be a correct analysis of CPS and family court, but is just my impressions from watching the actual trials at the court house (I try to watch a trial or sentencing or arraignments, different proceedings of the court system, at least once every other week)
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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  17. #17
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    ....

    UPDATE.
    The lady from CPS just left my home and it wasn't what I thought it would be. It was basically saying that I would allow supervised visitation every week, that I would make sure the mothers visits were supervised and if the mother appeared under the influence at visitation time that I wouldn't allow the visit to happen.

    ....

    The CPS lady said that since this is an open case that they work with the custody parent so they are able to keep up with the progress of the child I fully understand that just because it went well today doesn't mean that it won't bite me in the ass tomorrow....but whats a man to do
    PLEASE PM ME with a phone number where I can talk with you. This is no longer approariate to be discussed on a public forum.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  18. #18
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Hoo, boy! Where to begin?

    Dude is appropriately upset and apparently never had to go through this before. His reaching out in controlled desperation bothers you why?

    In spite of what the model laws say, courts still give tremendous preference to placing kids under about 16 with the mother, no matter how horrible the situation. The courts think if they throw enough services at her that will overcome the fact that she is unfit.* So the kid is treated like a ping-pong ball.

    The appropriate presumption would be that life at mom's reached crisis so the kid was moved temporarily to live with dad. When the crisis abated most likely mom asked for the kid to be returned, but CPS might have asked for more time to throw more services at mom before admitting she will never provide a stable home.

    * Getting back to the comment that the court says mom is "unfit" - is that unfit to the point of termination of residual parental rights, or just chaos again? The OP does not need an attorney to petition for termination of parental rights, but it would probably make the exercise easier.

    stay safe.
    Thank you Skid, this is a great explanation. Having my real good relationship with my children destroyed by the state, I can empathize with what the OP is going through.

    Hang in there man, at least you have your kids. My ex used the courts and her church to destroy the bond I had with mine.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
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    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  19. #19
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    I'd just like to give public kudos to Skidmark here. He's a crusty old fart, and we may have disagreed here and there on minutiae, but he knows what this system is all about, and is stepping up to help a man who is always going to be at a disadvantage in the court system just by virtue of being a man.

  20. #20
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KBCraig View Post
    I'd just like to give public kudos to Skidmark here. He's a crusty old fart, and we may have disagreed here and there on minutiae, but he knows what this system is all about, and is stepping up to help a man who is always going to be at a disadvantage in the court system just by virtue of being a man.

    I second that.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasjayhawk View Post
    Anybody else think the concept of, if you want to have your own child you must give up constitutional rights just a bit scary?
    Yep. Seems like the two should work in concert, not at opposite ends. What happened to our country?

    Skidmark, I spent tens of thousands of dollars and well over a thousand hours in the books doing everything possible just to retain decent visitation with my son, and I can't fault a single thing you said!

    I'm also leery of their demanding a house check after custody was awarded. I might add, "I was just awarded custody by the courts - why would you want a house check?" and regardless of how they answer, record it and use it against them in the courts, if possible.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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