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Thread: DOI, FP, AFP, The Constition, AOC...I Challenge You!

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    DOI, FP, AFP, The Constition, AOC...I Challenge You!

    I broke out the ole book last week, and started reading the Declaration Of Independence, Federalist Papers, U.S. Constitution, and Articles Of Confederation.

    I suppose the question is: What's your point, you freaking Libtard, anti-gun, Constitution-shredding Nihilist?!

    Answer: I have reade each a number of times, and gone through a couple of them with a fine-tooth comb.

    I would like to start us off with the notion of Armin ourselves, and rising-up against the Government. I will offer an alternative:

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. (DOI, 1776)
    Recently, there was a group of individuals who were plotting--allegedly--to rise-up against the U.S. Government, with arms, and sabotage civilian areas as well (apple crop, dam). What sprung to mind in the wake of this group being busted is the idea that maybe the loudest Declaration of Independence is not made with the firing of any weapon but the pen, the mouth, feet on the ground, and individuals declaring they will not support this System any more.

    How can we not support the system?: Not paying taxes, when ticketed, fight it in court (in large numbers), voting Third Party, Making it to public meetings, and confronting our so-called Representatives, etc..--just examples; these things require massive bodies doing the same, and standing their ground.

    I hope to see some more quotes.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    The Constition
    Woops!
    Last edited by jbone; 08-28-2012 at 05:41 PM.
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    ? Woops!
    Dammit!

    That's embarrassing. I wonder if they will change it for me.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 08-28-2012 at 05:42 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I wonder if they will change it for me.
    I'm sure they will for a price, you may have to write on the forum you love Chris Christie 100 times
    Iím proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    I'll preempt the indignant objections first: by my principles, the revolutionary colonials were justified in throwing off the yoke of England by armed rebellion.

    The Declaration of Independence was, in large part, brazen self-justification. Were the principles enumerated in it so self-apparent, they would bear out in America today, a society with far more causes for objection to our current governance, as well as far more degree of objection with regard to the same causes, as the American Colonies had. Everything they had to bitch about, we have to bitch about to a greater degree, and then some additional things to bitch about on top of that. In other words, if the American Colonials were to observe the state of liberty in America today, they'd think they had it good. The typical thinker, today, doesn't read the Declaration of Independence and confess, "Yeah, fair cop. Good on 'em." The typical thinker (whether Republican or Democrat), today, is adamantly opposed to everything the Declaration of Independence is predicated upon, and gives it a token nod in deference to tradition. The common citizen (whether Republican or Democrat) is far worse: he's never read it, thinks it's fuckin' badass, and let's go nuke some towel-heads.

    The Declaration of Independence says, in short, that institutional affront to liberty and denial of self-determination are so anathema to human nature that any human so-offended is intrinsically justified to foment and execute bloody revolution. In fact, it says this right at the beginning, and then the rest of it is just an enumeration of specific offenses and a wrap-up.

    In order to endorse the Declaration of Independence, pooh-pooh revolutionary ideology, and maintain any degree of intellectual consistency, one must argue that the Colonials had it worse than we do. That, I think, would be rather difficult.

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    Regular Member pfries's Avatar
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    @ ()pen(arry

    Although I agree with what you have stated I have to question?

    The colonials were in a bit of pickle they were subject to an overbearing monarchy.

    I can say that from a stand point of control, and let’s not kid ourselves this is about control,
    when my children are out of line I attempt to correct them before the actions needed to make that correction were beyond what I would like to call reasonable.

    What it seems you are stating is we should wait for things to get so bad that conflict is the only means to resolution?

    I for one would like to head it off at the pass, conflict is an extreme measure. Things have gotten where they are one small step at a time.
    A declaration to the government to get back to the roots of what founded this country, backed by citizens even in a minority to start .
    This sounds better to me than allowing things to continue until it is as bad as the colonies had it and conflict is inevitable.

    This is just my opine

    Pat
    Last edited by pfries; 08-28-2012 at 08:10 PM.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfries View Post
    What it seems you are stating is we should wait for things to get so bad that conflict is the only means to resolution?
    Not at all. Reviewing what I wrote:

    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    Everything they had to bitch about, we have to bitch about to a greater degree, and then some additional things to bitch about on top of that.
    *snip*
    The Declaration of Independence says, in short, that institutional affront to liberty and denial of self-determination are so anathema to human nature that any human so-offended is intrinsically justified to foment and execute bloody revolution.
    *snip*
    In order to endorse the Declaration of Independence, pooh-pooh revolutionary ideology, and maintain any degree of intellectual consistency, one must argue that the Colonials had it worse than we do. That, I think, would be rather difficult.
    What I'm saying is that, by the principles of the Declaration of Independence, once government becomes oppressive of liberty as a matter of course the governed are not merely justified, but well-nigh obligated, to overthrow that government, which in context means by force. It is, of course, always preferable to head off such an eventuality by correcting the early whisperings of oppression. It is also the case that the current government of the Unites States is undeniably and considerably more oppressive of liberty than was the government of England over the American Colonies.

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    Four boxes

    "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order."

    We have been using the first for years, only to be ignored or ridiculed by the media and our elected officials, for the most part.

    We try to use the second but due to the media, again, the needed messages don't get the coverage they need.

    The third is being denied to us by the current DOJ (black panthers, f&f, suing states for upholding federal laws, and for securing voters rights)

    Unfortunately, that leaves the fourth as the next option.

    I don't want to see it happen, civil war/revolution is an ugly thing, but if this November leaves us with another 4 years of this (lack of) leadership it may come sooner than we would like. When the DHS, SSA, even NOAA, are arming up (google ammunition purchases federal agencies) we need to wonder what the government has planned for us. I can't help but think that it isn't a nice vacation at the beach for each American.

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    I don't need any stinking papers to show what rights I have or don't have ...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbone View Post
    I'm sure they will for a price, you may have to write on the forum you love Chris Christie 100 times
    Then let it stand!
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  11. #11
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Federalist, Number 6, Para 2:

    "...A man must be far gone in Utopian speculations who can seriously doubt that, if these States should either be wholly disunited, or only united in partial confederacies, the subdivisions into which they might be thrown would have frequent and violent contests with each other. To presume a want of motives for such contests as an argument against their existence, would be to forget that men are ambitious, vindictive, and rapacious. To look for a continuation of harmony between a number of independent, unconnected sovereignties in the same neighbourhood, would be to disregard the uniform course of human events, and to set at defiance the accumulated experience of ages...."
    This section can be reduced to the individual drive of Man; that although Ambitious, he is also Vindictive, and Rapacious; hence: Social Man.--all the more reason for a potent Federal Government. And who is to assure the Federal Government does not get out of control, as the States are assured not?; nothing...I suppose the so-called People.

    Interestingly, the Founding Father's agree with my assertion, that Man is a beast which requires taming, and that taming comes in the form of many things, one is the formulation of Society, and for the sake of Common Order, Coercion.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Interestingly, the Founding Father's agree with my assertion, that Man is a beast which requires taming, and that taming comes in the form of many things, one is the formulation of Society, and for the sake of Common Order, Coercion.
    Paraphrasing what you just said:
    "The Founding Fathers agreed that two plus red equals penis, and that wild unicorn stew can cure cancer, and that everyone needs a kick in the teeth from time to time to prevent inflation.

    What? Your reading comprehension is atrocious.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Federalist, Number 6, Para 2:



    This section can be reduced to the individual drive of Man; that although Ambitious, he is also Vindictive, and Rapacious; hence: Social Man.--all the more reason for a potent Federal Government. And who is to assure the Federal Government does not get out of control, as the States are assured not?; nothing...I suppose the so-called People.

    Interestingly, the Founding Father's agree with my assertion, that Man is a beast which requires taming, and that taming comes in the form of many things, one is the formulation of Society, and for the sake of Common Order, Coercion.
    Taking a bit of "artistic license", eh?

    No..I think it could be reduced more to be that different people think and act differently (sometimes violently therefore) unless there is something they have in common...in our case, Freedom. Nothing about a "beast" needing to be tamed. The Founders believed that the best defense against a large government getting out of control, is a educated citizenry that has some "skin in the game", the freedom to speak their minds and the weapons (speech and firearms) to make a difference.

    Now...if you want to discuss how we have strayed from what was intended...that's another discussion.
    Last edited by carolina guy; 08-30-2012 at 01:50 PM.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Have a look at Federalists 9 and 10. Perhaps counter-intuitively, the best defense against the growth and power of factions that exercise power against the interests of the common good is to promote the proliferation of factions. The way this works is that the more people are focusing on their pet issues, and the more factions there are, the less relative power any given faction has, as the special interests are fragmented and sub-divided.

    What we have in America today is one massive faction: federal government, which answers to the basest, most self-serving whims of the populace, and continues to do so by paying political and economic capital to those interests that form symbiotic relationships with it. Our current model is precisely what Madison argued to prevent in F10. It is also the model you so enthusiastically endorse.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    Have a look at Federalists 9 and 10. Perhaps counter-intuitively, the best defense against the growth and power of factions that exercise power against the interests of the common good is to promote the proliferation of factions. The way this works is that the more people are focusing on their pet issues, and the more factions there are, the less relative power any given faction has, as the special interests are fragmented and sub-divided.

    What we have in America today is one massive faction: federal government, which answers to the basest, most self-serving whims of the populace, and continues to do so by paying political and economic capital to those interests that form symbiotic relationships with it. Our current model is precisely what Madison argued to prevent in F10. It is also the model you so enthusiastically endorse.
    You are correct...factions, united. That is the States and Federal government. But...people...especially VOTING citizens were supposed to understand this, as well as know when a law was unconstitutional and IGNORE it. An unconstitutional law is void.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina guy View Post
    You are correct...factions, united. That is the States and Federal government. But...people...especially VOTING citizens were supposed to understand this, as well as know when a law was unconstitutional and IGNORE it. An unconstitutional law is void.
    Oh sure. I meant that for B92FL. Sorry for not being clear.
    Last edited by ()pen(arry; 08-30-2012 at 04:46 PM. Reason: typo!

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    The Declaration of Independence says, in short, that institutional affront to liberty and denial of self-determination are so anathema to human nature that any human so-offended is intrinsically justified to foment and execute bloody revolution. In fact, it says this right at the beginning, and then the rest of it is just an enumeration of specific offenses and a wrap-up.
    Those specific offenses are an eye-opener. Obama's efforts, particularly with his impressive (puke) list of Constitution and Congressional-defying Executive Orders make some similar inroads as the offenses detailed in our Declaration of Independence, yet they pale on comparison to the widespread and nearly total misgovernance of the crown as listed therein.

    Wait until term two. As Doc said in Back to the Future, "You're going to see some serious s***."

    In order to endorse the Declaration of Independence, pooh-pooh revolutionary ideology, and maintain any degree of intellectual consistency, one must argue that the Colonials had it worse than we do. That, I think, would be rather difficult.
    Au, contraire! I think it would be exceedingly difficult to argue to the contrary. Just wait, though - elect him again, and see for yourselves just how much worse things will get.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    [snippers]

    What? Your reading comprehension is atrocious.
    I'm not connecting here with what your stating. Please, elaborate.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member ()pen(arry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I'm not connecting here with what your stating. Please, elaborate.
    You are quoting a historical document, and declaring that the quoted words support your views, without explaining the connection. However, not only is the connection not self-evident, but everyone who has responded to your claim has denied correlation. In other words, you've engaged in nonsensical non sequitur.

    EDIT: Let's just make this super clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    the Founding Father's agree with my assertion
    Like hell they do. Nothing in that quote suggests anything of the kind.
    Last edited by ()pen(arry; 09-04-2012 at 06:32 PM.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ()pen(arry View Post
    [snippers]



    Like hell they do. Nothing in that quote suggests anything of the kind.
    Yes, it does.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    Those specific offenses are an eye-opener. Obama's efforts, particularly with his impressive (puke) list of Constitution and Congressional-defying Executive Orders make some similar inroads as the offenses detailed in our Declaration of Independence, yet they pale on comparison to the widespread and nearly total misgovernance of the crown as listed therein.

    Wait until term two. As Doc said in Back to the Future, "You're going to see some serious s***."



    Au, contraire! I think it would be exceedingly difficult to argue to the contrary. Just wait, though - elect him again, and see for yourselves just how much worse things will get.
    Yes Obama bad, Bush was just as bad in his unconstitutional signings etc. What evidence you have Romeney will be better? His record as Governor doesn't support this, his comments don't support this.

    Vote independent.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Cracking The Ol Book Open...

    [Federal Government] can place the militia under one plan of discipline, and, by putting their officers in a proper line of subordination to the Chief Magistrate, will, as it were, consolidate them into one corps, and thereby render them more efficient than if divided into thirteen or into three or four distinct independent companies. Federalist #4


    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State... Second Amendment
    The Federal Government does regulate it's Militia well.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    The Federal Government does regulate it's Militia well.
    NO, the Misnamed "Federalist Papers" are not the constitution.

    This does not mean that militia's of the states can not volunteer to help.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Ambiguity about who regulates the milita of a particular faction could give rise to militia vs. militia.

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    Regular Member Lasjayhawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Dammit!

    That's embarrassing. I wonder if they will change it for me.
    I just checked. Obama will have the official spelling of Constitution changed to Constition.

    Who says DC won't listen??
    I stopped stocking for the zombie apocalypse. I now stock for the liberal apocalypse.

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