Spokane County Courthouse

FrayedString said:

While I can see someone accidentally leaving while forgetting to retrieve their property from the lock box, how many of them don't come back later and get their property (and thus return the key)? Isn't the persons personal property that is locked inside the locker kind of already acting as collateral? The key may cost $150 to replace, but it isn't worth 10 cents even in scrap metal to me. Whatever I locked inside that box would definitely be something I'd want back personally.

But anyhow, that seems like a pretty easy problem to solve:

- Invest in a cheaper to maintain lockbox system. $150 per key sounds ridiculous, I can't imagine that there isn't a cheaper lockbox system out there.

- They could put inventory control tags (like the ones used in retail stores, walk through the doors w/o paying and beep beep beep) on the keys in the form of a small keychain, and then put the "scanner" at the exit from the secured area. So anyone who left the secured area with a key on their person could be identified and given a friendly reminder to visit their lock box.

- They can write their legislators and ask that the court be removed from the list of prohibited places, since it is too much of a financial burden for them to comply with the current law, thus eliminating the need for lock boxes :banana:

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Masterlock pad locks are about 10 bucks each at a hardware store, less if you have the correct letter head.

The key thing does seem a bit silly. But the important thing is that the Sheriff did say that he would contact the County Legal Dept since he agreed that a CPL is not needed to carry, only to "conceal". Still waiting a call or email back and we'll see what happens!

-Thor

Thor80 said:

The key thing does seem a bit silly. But the important thing is that the Sheriff did say that he would contact the County Legal Dept since he agreed that a CPL is not needed to carry, only to "conceal". Still waiting a call or email back and we'll see what happens!

-Thor

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I get the same excuse here from Whatcom County. The city just moved the boxes so that that doesn't happen.

They could just use lock boxes like they have at the airport where the key stays in the box when done. I'd chip in for this and not expect the tax payers to pay.

BigDave said:

Then of course you hear about the Tacoma Courts and unloading the firearm, running of serial numbers to requiring you to reload outside and so on so forth.

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I wonder what they'd do if you reloaded and reholstered immediately after retrieving the gun, rather than follow their policy of demanding you do so outside? Might be an interesting test case...

gogodawgs said:

Don't carry your CPL. Get a passport instead of ID, give that to them. No address, No DL #....

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I've started doing this for the odd moments when I do need ID. Even to the point I've let my state ID card expire. The passport works for everything I need ID for, and is harder for a local government employee to abuse the information on.

Difdi said:

I wonder what they'd do if you reloaded and reholstered immediately after retrieving the gun, rather than follow their policy of demanding you do so outside? Might be an interesting test case...

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Pistol goes in the box loaded... pistol comes out the box loaded.

New here but I am one of your "rent a cops" at the courthouse. I open carry daily as well. I work public safety so you see me if you come to pay tickets or renew cpl(last 6 months only). I'm not sure if they have changed anything for your emails or not, but if anyone has questions on the procedures for checking let me know. I can post what the commissioners give us to follow.

I've done what I can to educate my co workers at the checkpoints about open carry and current laws.

Katsuke said:

New here but I am one of your "rent a cops" at the courthouse. I open carry daily as well. I work public safety so you see me if you come to pay tickets or renew cpl(last 6 months only). I'm not sure if they have changed anything for your emails or not, but if anyone has questions on the procedures for checking let me know. I can post what the commissioners give us to follow.

I've done what I can to educate my co workers at the checkpoints about open carry and current laws.

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That's awesome! Thanks for letting them know what the law says. I for one would love to see what the Commissioner passes out on the issue.

Here is the procedures we are given, and the sign in sheet. I don't agree with the log sheet as it is not something destroyed at the end of the day. It gets filed for 1 year then destroyed. When people come to my check point i just have them write the buildings address.

Katsuke said:

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Here is the procedures we are given, and the sign in sheet. I don't agree with the log sheet as it is not something destroyed at the end of the day. It gets filed for 1 year then destroyed. When people come to my check point i just have them write the buildings address.

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Thank you for the field update. I updated in the "Court Experiences" thread when I got the email back from Steve Bartel letting me know about the procedure change. He emailed me the procedure you have above and aside from the ID requirement it looks pretty good. Kind of like Knowledge's experience I think it will take someone denied access without and ID to show and a suit to get anyone to change that requirement.... Thanks again and welcome to OCDO!

-Thor

Spokane County Courhouse Open Carry w/o ID Fail

Good afternoon all,

I went to the courthouse yesterday (23 Oct 13) to pay my property taxes and to handle some other business and was turned away from entering the building.

As I went to deposit my sidearm without my ID (or my CCW as I was OC) I was told that I needed to have ID to do so. I informed the security agent that that is not the case and asked to speak with the security manager and a deputy.

Deputy Martone came over from the Public Safety Building and informed me that a Spokane County resolution (which I have yet to find) was passed that requires identification in order to deposit the firearm into the lock box.

I politely informed Deputy Martone of RCW's 9.41.300(1)(b) and 9.41.290. Deputy Martone then exclaimed to me that he didn't care what it said there as he knew what the resolution said and that is what he was told to follow.

I followed up with Lt. Jones of the Spokane County Sheriff's Department (SCSD) and in a somewhat lengthy discussion he informed me that RCW 36.32.120(7) allowed them to make safety rules/resolutions that are similar to the resolution I mentioned above. I of course informed Lt. Jones of the RCW 9.41.290 but Lt. Jones stated to me that he couldn't act against a resolution and that he also supports it as well.

At this point I have made a phone call to the 2nd Amendment Foundation as well as the NRA to see about a course of action that would assist in overturning this resolution and course of action that is impeding my ability to enter the courthouse lawfully.

Additionally, I have as well contacted the county commissioners office to track down the resolution that is at the center of this issue to read the fine print, as well as to make a formal complaint.

I must say that I was incredibly unhappy and left feeling violated by the county's action against me.



Rob

NavyLCDR said:

First lesson, when you are open carrying, leave the CPL in the car. If you are not anticipating needing your ID for something else, leave it in the car too.

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SpokaneOC said:

Good afternoon all,

I went to the courthouse yesterday (23 Mar 13) to pay my property taxes...

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I assume you meant 23 Oct 13.

I Seen you down there. Was on lunch. I screen at PSB

As screeners at the courthouse I've tried to teach my co workers the laws, but in order to keep jobs we have to follow what's given. If you need our procedures to reference to help remedy the situation I posted them up about 3 or 4 posts.

Welcome to the forum.

Is the auditors office on the same floor located in the same wing as the court rooms? If so they may not be following another part of the law. I was successful in getting them to rearrange the ropes for the security area at Whatcom County courthouse.

Katsuke said:

As screeners at the courthouse I've tried to teach my co workers the laws, but in order to keep jobs we have to follow what's given. If you need our procedures to reference to help remedy the situation I posted them up about 3 or 4 posts.

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There is no legal shield for people who knowingly obey an unlawful order out of fear of unlawful retaliation.

UPDATE re: Lockbox ID Requirement for OC

Good morning all,

I went back to the courthouse today for some more business and followed up with an in person visit to the County Commissioner's office. I am awaiting a call to schedule an appointment with Commissioner Mielke regarding this matter.

The counties argument regarding RCW 36.32.120(7) is interesting in that it appears they are using an overly broad interpretation from the first sentence of the clause regarding "...police and sanitary regulations..."

I am hoping this can be resolved in a conversation with Commissioner Mielke.

I'll continue to update as I come across new information.

SpokaneOC said:

Good afternoon all,

I went to the courthouse yesterday (23 Oct 13) to pay my property taxes and to handle some other business and was turned away from entering the building.

As I went to deposit my sidearm without my ID (or my CCW as I was OC) I was told that I needed to have ID to do so. I informed the security agent that that is not the case and asked to speak with the security manager and a deputy.

Deputy Martone came over from the Public Safety Building and informed me that a Spokane County resolution (which I have yet to find) was passed that requires identification in order to deposit the firearm into the lock box.

I politely informed Deputy Martone of RCW's 9.41.300(1)(b) and 9.41.290. Deputy Martone then exclaimed to me that he didn't care what it said there as he knew what the resolution said and that is what he was told to follow.

I followed up with Lt. Jones of the Spokane County Sheriff's Department (SCSD) and in a somewhat lengthy discussion he informed me that RCW 36.32.120(7) allowed them to make safety rules/resolutions that are similar to the resolution I mentioned above. I of course informed Lt. Jones of the RCW 9.41.290 but Lt. Jones stated to me that he couldn't act against a resolution and that he also supports it as well.

At this point I have made a phone call to the 2nd Amendment Foundation as well as the NRA to see about a course of action that would assist in overturning this resolution and course of action that is impeding my ability to enter the courthouse lawfully.

Additionally, I have as well contacted the county commissioners office to track down the resolution that is at the center of this issue to read the fine print, as well as to make a formal complaint.

I must say that I was incredibly unhappy and left feeling violated by the county's action against me.



Rob

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SpokaneOC said:

Good morning all,

I went back to the courthouse today for some more business and followed up with an in person visit to the County Commissioner's office. I am awaiting a call to schedule an appointment with Commissioner Mielke regarding this matter.

The counties argument regarding RCW 36.32.120(7) is interesting in that it appears they are using an overly broad interpretation from the first sentence of the clause regarding "...police and sanitary regulations..."

I am hoping this can be resolved in a conversation with Commissioner Mielke.

I'll continue to update as I come across new information.

Click to expand...

Thanks for picking this up again. I got them to remove the CPL requirement and also informed them why the ID requirement is not lawful during those discussions. Sheriff Ozzie made the suggestions to the commissioners on the procedure changes but he was also a believer in leaving the ID requirement in place. Which I just found out a few weeks ago when Steve Bartel emailed me the new procedures. (The Commissioners never bothered to contact me, they just had the Sheriff call me.) I am glad that someone else has the same issues with the procedure that I did, the more people that step up and say that this isn't right the better! Keep us informed. One point I would bring up, again, is the fact that NO ONE ELSE that enters the courthouse must produce ID. Once we put our pistols in the lockbox we are the SAME as everyone else, we pass through the screening point just like anyone else so why must we produce papers?

-Thor

Edit: Also it may be helpful to bring up the fact, (again, as I already informed the Sheriff) that they are requiring something that is not required to carry a firearm in this state. You are NOT REQUIRED to have ID to carry a firearm, they are REQUIRED to provide lockboxes by law. Pretty simple in my opinion, how can they REQUIRE your ID to give you a key when it is NOT REQUIRED to carry? That would be like denying your ability to WALK down the street by the courthouse without a DRIVERS LICENSE.....

Also "resolutions" by the county that are Pre-Empted by 290 are Null and Void! Chan v Seattle, Oak Harbor there have been many examples of people "breaking" City Municipal Code that were void anyway by 290 and not getting in trouble...

Thor80 said:

Thanks for picking this up again. I got them to remove the CPL requirement and also informed them why the ID requirement is not lawful during those discussions. Sheriff Ozzie made the suggestions to the commissioners on the procedure changes but he was also a believer in leaving the ID requirement in place. Which I just found out a few weeks ago when Steve Bartel emailed me the new procedures. (The Commissioners never bothered to contact me, they just had the Sheriff call me.) I am glad that someone else has the same issues with the procedure that I did, the more people that step up and say that this isn't right the better! Keep us informed. One point I would bring up, again, is the fact that NO ONE ELSE that enters the courthouse must produce ID. Once we put our pistols in the lockbox we are the SAME as everyone else, we pass through the screening point just like anyone else so why must we produce papers?

-Thor

Edit: Also it may be helpful to bring up the fact, (again, as I already informed the Sheriff) that they are requiring something that is not required to carry a firearm in this state. You are NOT REQUIRED to have ID to carry a firearm, they are REQUIRED to provide lockboxes by law. Pretty simple in my opinion, how can they REQUIRE your ID to give you a key when it is NOT REQUIRED to carry? That would be like denying your ability to WALK down the street by the courthouse without a DRIVERS LICENSE.....

Also "resolutions" by the county that are Pre-Empted by 290 are Null and Void! Chan v Seattle, Oak Harbor there have been many examples of people "breaking" City Municipal Code that were void anyway by 290 and not getting in trouble...

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Good lord what part of "as are not in conflict with state law," from RCW 36.32.120 (7) & "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state," From RCW 9.41.290 do they not understand???????

At what point are they conspiring to violate our state and federal rights???

Jeff Hayes said:

Good lord what part of "as are not in conflict with state law," from RCW 36.32.120 (7) & "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state," From RCW 9.41.290 do they not understand???????

At what point are they conspiring to violate our state and federal rights???

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+1 Thanks for pointing that clause out. I hadn't bothered to look it up yet, that's a strong point against their entire argument.

Jeff Hayes said:

Good lord what part of "as are not in conflict with state law," from RCW 36.32.120 (7) & "The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state," From RCW 9.41.290 do they not understand???????

At what point are they conspiring to violate our state and federal rights???

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Here Dave McEachron decided as a prosecutor he can legally tell them they can demand ID, I called him on it and he at first said he can be more restrictive until I pointed out that clause, he then went to "saftey" reasons, I asked him for a lawful explanation, he hung up the phone on me.

They don't care about rights, they care about power.