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Thread: From Michigan Comming To Wisconsin

  1. #1
    michcarrier
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    From Michigan Comming To Wisconsin

    I will be in Wisconsin this weekend and have been pouring over some of your laws in preparation. While reading through the CCW FAQ (http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/...q-20111020.pdf) provided by your department of justice, I came across something that doesn't appear to be correct, and I'm hoping someone here might be able to help me out.

    On pg 29 of the FAQ, under the bullet "School grounds and premises", the first paragraph states

    "No one, including a CCW licensee may carry a firearm in or on the grounds of a school unless another specific statutory exception applies. Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r."

    However, I looked up 948.605 "Gun-free school zones". http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/stat...atutes/948/605

    (2)(b) states "Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:"
    and 1r states "Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)d, or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)(g)."

    Is it just me or is the FAQ wrong? I have a Michigan CPL (CCW in Wis) and I frequently open carry. I do not plan on being near any schools, I'm just trying to be careful.

    Thank you for any help.

  2. #2
    michcarrier
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    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

    Correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by michcarrier View Post
    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

    Correct?
    Yep you got it. With a CCL you can also OC within the zone, just keep off school property. Enjoy your trip and eat lots of cheese. I love MI apples and other fruits.
    Last edited by Law abider; 08-30-2012 at 10:36 AM.

  4. #4
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michcarrier View Post
    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

    Correct?

    That is correct. No go in or on school grounds, but the 1000' thing is now gone (with CCL).
    Last edited by AaronS; 08-30-2012 at 10:38 AM. Reason: SP

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michcarrier View Post
    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

    Correct?
    Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
    Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

    While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
    michcarrier
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    Thanks for the confirm. It was nice of them to include an exception within an exception. Double negatives are always fun.

  7. #7
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
    Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

    While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.
    CPLs work for the STATE law they have on GFSZ, but the Feds have their own. Lets get that clear as some state law mirror Fed law and some states do not have a GFSZ. Clear as mud.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
    Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
    http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

    While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.
    Grapeshot. Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?

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    a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

    check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list

    the NO's

    no schools
    no police stations
    no court houses
    no posted buildings , the sign should be 5x7 inches or larger posted at all entrances
    no drinking - you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol



    your car is a part of your home you may keep your gun securely locked in it even if you are parked in a parking lot of a posted place

    you don't need to notify an officer during a traffic stop by law but DOJ suggest it

    keep your carry permit /license on you with a photo id any time you have your gun on you

    if you have to use your gun ,you are to retreat to a place of safety and call 911 to report as soon as possible then follow officer instructions.

    there are obviously more details and in and outs to the law but this should cover the basics , keep it covered and no one will ever know and you can enjoy your trip
    Last edited by GreenCountyPete; 08-30-2012 at 11:37 AM.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=GreenCountyPete;1817928]a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

    check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list[quote]

    I thought so. Misunderstood Grapeshot.
    Last edited by Law abider; 08-30-2012 at 12:49 PM.

  11. #11
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider View Post
    Grapeshot. Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?
    =Law abider;1817953]
    =GreenCountyPete;1817928]a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

    check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list

    I thought so. Misunderstood Grapeshot.
    I do not misunderstand the GFSZ Act 1995. While many hold it to be unconstitutional and some claim it has never been tested, it has been successfully prosecuted.




    Nothing in the Wisconsin Constitution or statutes nullifies the federal law.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 08-30-2012 at 01:47 PM. Reason: Corrected formatting...I hope
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    michcarrier
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCountyPete View Post
    the NO's

    no drinking - you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol
    So far I am unable to find anything about not being able to open carry in a tavern. Could someone point me in the right direction. The FAQ lists 941.237(cx), but I see nothing that talks about the manner in which someone is carrying.

    941.237(2) - "Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. "
    941.237(3) - "Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following: "
    941.237(3)(cx) - A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out-of-state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCountyPete View Post
    you don't need to notify an officer during a traffic stop by law but DOJ suggest it
    I didn't realize this. Thank you.

  13. #13
    Regular Member AaronS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Not very valid examples I would say.

    I don't think he is going to bring a machine gun to a school. I dont think he is going to sell drugs at a school, or discharge a gun when he is selling drugs near a school. I don't think he is going to be breaking a law when he is found to be in a school zone CC. If he does, I hope the cops do hit him with the extra charge.

  14. #14
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    Do any of the cited cases involve an out of state CCW permit? At least one does not.

    I looked at one of the cases. It could not find anything to do with the person being prosecuted having an out of state concealed carry permit. Do any of the cases that you cite have to do with an out of state permit that is recognized by the state they occur in?

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    [QUOTE=Grapeshot;1817987]I do not misunderstand the GFSZ Act 1995.

    What I meant was that I misunderstood you. I thought you said that only Wi residents with a WI CCL can enter a GFSZ in WI and no other CCL from any other state even if that state has reciprocity with WI can enter a GFSZ bec they don't reside in WI. But you meant that michcarrier can indeed enter the GFSZ with a MI CCL bec we have recoprocity with them.

    Ofcourse true constitutional carry as our founders would/may want it to be no longer exists bec of overregulations/prohibitions.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Lurchiron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michcarrier View Post
    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

    Correct?
    You got it...but one thing; there are NO Pasties below the bridge so BYOP, however we do have cheese, glorious cheese, yellow & white enough to eat all night... Go Bears!!!
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  17. #17
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by michcarrier
    After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.
    1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.
    Correct?
    Mostly correct.
    Only a WI licensee is completely legal to carry within 1000' of the edge of a school property.
    Part of the trouble you're having comes from trying to understand the law by only reading the DOJ FAQ.
    They're not completely accurate, & in some places flat-out wrong &/or deliberately misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot
    [in the school zone] Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
    Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
    Correct. Here's an APR02 BATFEces memo saying that very thing.
    Now... WI has said it's OK, & they won't prosecute (probably) but it's still a federal crime.
    And in WI NO mere licensee can go on school property or into the buildings while armed.
    (There is an "unloaded & encased" exception, but I don't trust LEO/LEA to follow the law. There are also exceptions for having permission from the school official(s). See above.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider
    Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?
    Quote Originally Posted by Law abider
    I thought you said that only Wi residents with a WI CCL can enter a GFSZ in WI and no other CCL from any other state even if that state has reciprocity with WI can enter a GFSZ bec they don't reside in WI.
    Correct. The federal law requires that a person be investigated / licensed by the state in which the school sits.
    Again, WI has said they won't prosecute. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by GreenCountyPete
    you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol
    It's legal to carry openly or concealed in a tavern (see definition below *) if you have a valid carry license & it's not posted.
    When carrying on a license you may not drink alcohol on the premises.
    It's legal to carry openly in a tavern without a license if you have permission from the owner or manager.

    * "Tavern" means a bar or restaurant (class B liquor license) that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption. So going into a grocery store is fine w/o a carry license.

    keep your carry permit / license on you with a photo id any time you have your gun on you
    Not needed for open carry, unless in a restricted place (state park, taxpayer-owned building, tavern, school zone).

    keep it covered and no one will ever know
    What's the name of this site again?

  18. #18
    Regular Member paul@paul-fisher.com's Avatar
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    Re: From Michigan Comming To Wisconsin

    175.60(2)(d) covers out of state licensing for the Federal GFSZ.

    It hasn't been tested in Federal court but other states have similar wording.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by paul@paul-fisher.com View Post
    175.60(2)(d) covers out of state licensing for the Federal GFSZ.

    It hasn't been tested in Federal court but other states have similar wording.

    Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
    The Yellow Cat concurs with Paul Fisher. The Wisconsin statute is almost word-for-word verbatim with a similar Utah law in which the State declares that a recognized out-of-state Permit / License bears the same weight and standing as a State Resident permit of WI / UT respectively for the purposes of both that State's GFSZ and the Federal GFSZ. The language is quite clear and states that Wisconsin (Utah) will not initiate proceedings against an out-of-state permit / license holder for being within the 1000 foot zone extending from the property line of the school or outside event that is sponsored by a school (example: Football Game at a field far outside any other school zone - or track and field meet, soccer game, etc sponsored by a school as defined by the statute.)

    To counter this is a BATF memo contradicting this interpretation. However, a written statement by a federal bureaucrat does not hold the Force of Law. I teach this concept to students with the caveat that this interpretation has not yet been tested in a Court of Competent Jurisdiction.

    On a practical level, the cases cited by a poster above did not involve any sort of permit / license to carry and all involved a relatively serious predicate crime or behavior. The Federal GFSZ charges were "enhancement" charges. To sum up, Wisconsin considers any permit / license it recognizes to have the same weight and standing as a Wisconsin License carried by a Wisconsin resident. Whether or not the language of the Wisconsin statute will really protect somebody operating under it is in dispute and has not yet been tested in the Courts. However as a practical matter, absent any other misbehavior, it is unlikely that the subject would come up with law enforcement. Thus, I have a challenge.

    To my friends in Wisconsin. If any of you are on good terms with a Wisconsin LEO, you may ask a hypothetical question on my behalf. The scenario involves a routine traffic stop in Wisconsin and within a GFSZ, perhaps within eyesight of the school. The out-of-state permit / license holder submits his/her permit / license along with his/her driver license. When asked, the out-of-state resident reveals that he/she is armed. The question for WI/LEO is: absent any serious offense (remember, this is a routine traffic matter), would the LEO respect the legislative intent of the WI law, or contact the Feds to turn a routine traffic stop into a Federal Case? (It might be interesting to hear a Milwaukee or Madison perspective on this question as well as a more rural response.)

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  20. #20
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    IIRC, pkbites is a Milwaukee LEO & a member here.
    Maybe s/he could ask around at work & report back?

  21. #21
    michcarrier
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    Had a great time in Wisconsin. Thanks to everyone for the help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lurchiron View Post
    You got it...but one thing; there are NO Pasties below the bridge so BYOP, however we do have cheese, glorious cheese, yellow & white enough to eat all night... Go Bears!!!
    there are pasties , but you need to go to south west Wisconsin to find them Cornish miners aren't as common here any more as they once were.

    pasties were the traditional Cornish miner lunch

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post


    What's the name of this site again?
    yes I know , but sometimes it is about having an enjoyable vacation with the family and not being a political activist.

    I thank all who open carry , it is a great service to all the gun owners of the state ,but sometimes one just wants to have a nice vacation and not run into trouble when away from home.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    A WI Municipal or State level prosecuting attorney is not going to prosecute an out-of-state licensee under the Federal GFSZ. Unless you do something to get the attention of a Federal Prosecutor by violating some other "law" under their jurisdiction, you have little to worry about.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    In none of these cases were the individuals simply minding their own business and otherwise legally possessing a firearm in a GFSZ. If you are a drug dealer, felon in possession of a firearm, discharging it in a school zone, etc you can reasonably expect to get pounded... Of course they were prosecuted as they worked hard to be so...
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 09-06-2012 at 08:23 PM.

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