From Michigan Comming To Wisconsin

michcarrier · Aug 30, 2012

I will be in Wisconsin this weekend and have been pouring over some of your laws in preparation. While reading through the CCW FAQ (http://www.doj.state.wi.us/dles/cib/ConcealedCarry/ccw-faq-20111020.pdf) provided by your department of justice, I came across something that doesn't appear to be correct, and I'm hoping someone here might be able to help me out.

On pg 29 of the FAQ, under the bullet "School grounds and premises", the first paragraph states

"No one, including a CCW licensee may carry a firearm in or on the grounds of a school unless another specific statutory exception applies. Wis. Stat. 948.605(2)(b)1r."

However, I looked up 948.605 "Gun-free school zones". http://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/948/605

(2)(b) states "Paragraph (a) does not apply to the possession of a firearm by any of the following:"
and 1r states "Except if the person is in or on the grounds of a school, a licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)d, or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60(1)(g)."

Is it just me or is the FAQ wrong? I have a Michigan CPL (CCW in Wis) and I frequently open carry. I do not plan on being near any schools, I'm just trying to be careful.

Thank you for any help.

michcarrier · Aug 30, 2012

After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

Correct?

Law abider · Aug 30, 2012

michcarrier said:
After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

Correct?

Yep you got it. With a CCL you can also OC within the zone, just keep off school property. Enjoy your trip and eat lots of cheese. I love MI apples and other fruits.

AaronS · Aug 30, 2012

michcarrier said:
After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

Correct?

That is correct. No go in or on school grounds, but the 1000' thing is now gone (with CCL).

Grapeshot · Aug 30, 2012

michcarrier said:
After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

Correct?

Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.

michcarrier · Aug 30, 2012

Thanks for the confirm. It was nice of them to include an exception within an exception. Double negatives are always fun.

Venator · Aug 30, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.

CPLs work for the STATE law they have on GFSZ, but the Feds have their own. Lets get that clear as some state law mirror Fed law and some states do not have a GFSZ. Clear as mud.

Law abider · Aug 30, 2012

Grapeshot said:
Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.
http://www.gunlaws.com/Gun_Free_School_Zones_Act.pdf

While seldom prosecuted, that is not the point.

Grapeshot. Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?

GreenCountyPete · Aug 30, 2012

a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list

the NO's

no schools
no police stations
no court houses
no posted buildings , the sign should be 5x7 inches or larger posted at all entrances
no drinking - you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol

your car is a part of your home you may keep your gun securely locked in it even if you are parked in a parking lot of a posted place

you don't need to notify an officer during a traffic stop by law but DOJ suggest it

keep your carry permit /license on you with a photo id any time you have your gun on you

if you have to use your gun ,you are to retreat to a place of safety and call 911 to report as soon as possible then follow officer instructions.

there are obviously more details and in and outs to the law but this should cover the basics , keep it covered and no one will ever know and you can enjoy your trip

Law abider · Aug 30, 2012

GreenCountyPete said:
a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list

I thought so. Misunderstood Grapeshot.

Click to expand...

Grapeshot · Aug 30, 2012

Law abider said:
Grapeshot. Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?

=Law abider;1817953]

=GreenCountyPete;1817928]a brief summary for anyone visiting Wisconsin

check that your license or permit is recognized by Wisconsin DOJ on their web site they have a list

I thought so. Misunderstood Grapeshot.

Click to expand...

I do not misunderstand the GFSZ Act 1995. While many hold it to be unconstitutional and some claim it has never been tested, it has been successfully prosecuted.

Nothing in the Wisconsin Constitution or statutes nullifies the federal law.

michcarrier · Aug 30, 2012

GreenCountyPete said:
the NO's

no drinking - you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol

So far I am unable to find anything about not being able to open carry in a tavern. Could someone point me in the right direction. The FAQ lists 941.237(cx), but I see nothing that talks about the manner in which someone is carrying.

941.237(2) - "Whoever intentionally goes armed with a handgun on any premises for which a Class "B" or "Class B" license or permit has been issued under ch. 125 is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor. "
941.237(3) - "Subsection (2) does not apply to any of the following: "
941.237(3)(cx) - A licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (d), or an out-of-state licensee, as defined in s. 175.60 (1) (g), if the licensee or out-of-state licensee is not consuming alcohol on the premises.

GreenCountyPete said:
you don't need to notify an officer during a traffic stop by law but DOJ suggest it

I didn't realize this. Thank you.

AaronS · Aug 30, 2012

Grapeshot said:
I do not misunderstand the GFSZ Act 1995. While many hold it to be unconstitutional and some claim it has never been tested, it has been successfully prosecuted.

United States v Danks (Eighth Circuit 1999)

United States v Tait (Eleventh Circuit 2000)

United States v Haywood (Third Circuit 2002)

United States v Smith (Sixth Circuit 2005)

United States v Dorsey (Ninth Circuit 2005)

United States v Nieves-Castaño (First Circuit 2007)

United States v Weekes (Third Circuit 2007)

United States v Benally (Tenth Circuit 2007)

United States v Cruz-Rodriguez (First Circuit 2008)

Nothing in the Wisconsin Constitution or statutes nullifies the federal law.

Not very valid examples I would say.

I don't think he is going to bring a machine gun to a school. I dont think he is going to sell drugs at a school, or discharge a gun when he is selling drugs near a school. I don't think he is going to be breaking a law when he is found to be in a school zone CC. If he does, I hope the cops do hit him with the extra charge.

ccwinstructor · Aug 30, 2012

Do any of the cited cases involve an out of state CCW permit? At least one does not.

I looked at one of the cases. It could not find anything to do with the person being prosecuted having an out of state concealed carry permit. Do any of the cases that you cite have to do with an out of state permit that is recognized by the state they occur in?

Law abider · Aug 30, 2012

Grapeshot said:
I do not misunderstand the GFSZ Act 1995.

What I meant was that I misunderstood you. I thought you said that only Wi residents with a WI CCL can enter a GFSZ in WI and no other CCL from any other state even if that state has reciprocity with WI can enter a GFSZ bec they don't reside in WI. But you meant that michcarrier can indeed enter the GFSZ with a MI CCL bec we have recoprocity with them.

Ofcourse true constitutional carry as our founders would/may want it to be no longer exists bec of overregulations/prohibitions.

Lurchiron · Aug 30, 2012

michcarrier said:
After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.

1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.

Correct?

You got it...but one thing; there are NO Pasties below the bridge so BYOP, however we do have cheese, glorious cheese, yellow & white enough to eat all night...

:dude:

Go Bears!!!

MKEgal · Aug 30, 2012

michcarrier said:
After reading everything a few more times, I think I get it now.
1r basically says that a CCW holder is exempt from the 1000ft portion, but still cannot enter the school or school grounds.
Correct?

Mostly correct.
Only a WI licensee is completely legal to carry within 1000' of the edge of a school property.
Part of the trouble you're having comes from trying to understand the law by only reading the DOJ FAQ.
They're not completely accurate, & in some places flat-out wrong &/or deliberately misleading.

Grapeshot said:
[in the school zone] Only IF he is licensed to do so by the state in which the GFSZ is located.
Neither reciprocity nor non-resident permit will provide a get out of jail free card.

Correct. Here's an APR02 BATFEces memo saying that very thing.
Now... WI has said it's OK, & they won't prosecute (probably) but it's still a federal crime.
And in WI NO mere licensee can go on school property or into the buildings while armed.
(There is an "unloaded & encased" exception, but I don't trust LEO/LEA to follow the law. There are also exceptions for having permission from the school official(s). See above.)

Law abider said:
Are you saying that out of state CCL holders CANNOT OC or CC in our state within the GFSZs even of we have a recoprocity with them and they need an actual WI CCL?

Law abider said:
I thought you said that only Wi residents with a WI CCL can enter a GFSZ in WI and no other CCL from any other state even if that state has reciprocity with WI can enter a GFSZ bec they don't reside in WI.

Correct. The federal law requires that a person be investigated / licensed by the state in which the school sits.
Again, WI has said they won't prosecute. But...

GreenCountyPete said:
you may carry concealed (not open) into a tavern you may NOT drink alcohol

It's legal to carry openly or concealed in a tavern (see definition below *) if you have a valid carry license & it's not posted.
When carrying on a license you may not drink alcohol on the premises.
It's legal to carry openly in a tavern without a license if you have permission from the owner or manager.

* "Tavern" means a bar or restaurant (class B liquor license) that serves alcohol for on-premises consumption. So going into a grocery store is fine w/o a carry license.

keep your carry permit / license on you with a photo id any time you have your gun on you

Not needed for open carry, unless in a restricted place (state park, taxpayer-owned building, tavern, school zone).

keep it covered and no one will ever know

What's the name of this site again?

paul@paul-fisher.com · Sep 2, 2012

175.60(2)(d) covers out of state licensing for the Federal GFSZ.

It hasn't been tested in Federal court but other states have similar wording.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

jpm84092 · Sep 2, 2012

paul@paul-fisher.com said:
175.60(2)(d) covers out of state licensing for the Federal GFSZ.

It hasn't been tested in Federal court but other states have similar wording.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

The Yellow Cat concurs with Paul Fisher. The Wisconsin statute is almost word-for-word verbatim with a similar Utah law in which the State declares that a recognized out-of-state Permit / License bears the same weight and standing as a State Resident permit of WI / UT respectively for the purposes of both that State's GFSZ and the Federal GFSZ. The language is quite clear and states that Wisconsin (Utah) will not initiate proceedings against an out-of-state permit / license holder for being within the 1000 foot zone extending from the property line of the school or outside event that is sponsored by a school (example: Football Game at a field far outside any other school zone - or track and field meet, soccer game, etc sponsored by a school as defined by the statute.)

To counter this is a BATF memo contradicting this interpretation. However, a written statement by a federal bureaucrat does not hold the Force of Law. I teach this concept to students with the caveat that this interpretation has not yet been tested in a Court of Competent Jurisdiction.

On a practical level, the cases cited by a poster above did not involve any sort of permit / license to carry and all involved a relatively serious predicate crime or behavior. The Federal GFSZ charges were "enhancement" charges. To sum up, Wisconsin considers any permit / license it recognizes to have the same weight and standing as a Wisconsin License carried by a Wisconsin resident. Whether or not the language of the Wisconsin statute will really protect somebody operating under it is in dispute and has not yet been tested in the Courts. However as a practical matter, absent any other misbehavior, it is unlikely that the subject would come up with law enforcement. Thus, I have a challenge.

To my friends in Wisconsin. If any of you are on good terms with a Wisconsin LEO, you may ask a hypothetical question on my behalf. The scenario involves a routine traffic stop in Wisconsin and within a GFSZ, perhaps within eyesight of the school. The out-of-state permit / license holder submits his/her permit / license along with his/her driver license. When asked, the out-of-state resident reveals that he/she is armed. The question for WI/LEO is: absent any serious offense (remember, this is a routine traffic matter), would the LEO respect the legislative intent of the WI law, or contact the Feds to turn a routine traffic stop into a Federal Case? (It might be interesting to hear a Milwaukee or Madison perspective on this question as well as a more rural response.)

Yellow Cat Out -

MKEgal · Sep 2, 2012

IIRC, pkbites is a Milwaukee LEO & a member here.
Maybe s/he could ask around at work & report back?

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