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Thread: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

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    Regular Member Michigun's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    A bicyclist disregards a red light and crosses across the road riding into the side of pickup truck (denting it heavily). He then gets up, walks around the truck and begins assaulting the driver through the drivers window and is shot by the driver 1 time in the chest. The bicyclist later died in surgery. The driver, a former Marine with no criminal history is now sitting in jail awaiting charges.

    http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/B...u/-/index.html

    http://thenewsherald.com/articles/20...3399352081.txt

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...-shocking-turn

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...ent-speaks-out

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    It's Taylor. Do not expect anything logical from them. If the cyclist had a gun or knife the truck driver may have gotten some slack from them. But since bicycle guy did not have weapons (fists have never killed anyone right?) . They will throw every charge they can at him to see what sticks. Now remember back to last summer, when a older man came home, got out of his car and saw a dog he thought was aggresive (he most likely was right in being scared of it). He then goes into his house, gets a 40 cal Glock and fires multiple rounds into & at the dog. Guess what? He had no charges brought even though many neighbors stated what he did put more people in danger than the dog did and that he should have just called animal control.

    What's my point? Logically one would think a attack - sudden and violent would warrant the use of deadly force to defend ones life. A situation where one not only has the time to leave, then recoup a pistol inside ones home, then return and fire multiple rounds near a public street for a "possible threat" would warrant at minimum an investgation right? Not so in Taylor. The main difference is one knew members of the police force and the other person did not. Not saying either sould have been charged, but in my honest opinion the dog shooter was more in violation of the law than the driver of the pickup truck.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-30-2012 at 01:23 PM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

  3. #3
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    It sounds like there are multiple witnesses that say it was definitely self-defense, that's a good thing.
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    In this case, it's going to be argued (maybe rightly so, I don't know the facts) that the man in tge truck could have just as easily drove away -- thus deadly force wasn't "necessary".
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 10-12-2012 at 08:18 AM. Reason: it's necessary. :)
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    It's Taylor. Do not expect anything logical from them. If the cyclist had a gun or knife the truck driver may have gotten some slack from them. But since bicycle guy did not have weapons (fists have never killed anyone right?) . They will throw every charge they can at him to see what sticks. Now remember back to last summer, when a older man came home, got out of his car and saw a dog he thought was aggresive (he most likely was right in being scared of it). He then goes into his house, gets a 40 cal Glock and fires multiple rounds into & at the dog. Guess what? He had no charges brought even though many neighbors stated what he did put more people in danger than the dog did and that he should have just called animal control.

    What's my point? Logically one would think a attack - sudden and violent would warrant the use of deadly force to defend ones life. A situation where one not only has the time to leave, then recoup a pistol inside ones home, then return and fire multiple rounds near a public street for a "possible threat" would warrant at minimum an investgation right? Not so in Taylor. The main difference is one knew members of the police force and the other person did not. Not saying either sould have been charged, but in my honest opinion the dog shooter was more in violation of the law than the driver of the pickup truck.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    The two articles I read said may be charged. This is SOP. The prosecutor will review and decide to charge or not.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    The guy in the truck never got out of the truck. He could have drove away also.

    The law reads the deadly force must be "necessary". This angle has been discussed on MGO many times.


    The prosecution may argue the truck driver could have rolled up his window and/or hit the gas.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 10-12-2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: ibid
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    In this case, it's going to be argued (maybe rightly so, I don't know the facts) that the man in tge truck could have just as easily drove away -- thus deadly force wasn't "nessicary".
    To do so he would have left the scene of a accident and by that time may have had to run the light? This sounds like it was an almost instant attack on the driver. If you have a full grown man hanging in your window it won't just roll up either. Ever hear of safety roll down feature most modern cars have so kids cannot roll the window up on their heads! From the limited info it sounds like he should not be charged. Now if Taylor ask for state charges, who knows, but I would not be shocked if they do. This guy was in a bad spot no matter what he did, drive away face charges and possible death, just take beating - again face death, shoot - live and risk going to jail. Not cool any way you look at it.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Shooting a man is a crime (SD aside). I think they'd let you go off fleeing the scene if you were getting a beat down.

    There's lots of facts yet to be known. I withhold judgement one way or another.

    Legally speaking this case may well hinge on if the shooting was "necessary" -- that is, if there was no other option that would have equally assured the survival of the defender.

    Again, this type of scenario has been discussed on MGO numerous times. Recently a man got charged and convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for pulling a gun on a guy who was about to deliver him a beat down. It was the first trial case Shyster lost.
    Last edited by Big Gay Al; 10-12-2012 at 08:19 AM. Reason: spell check. ;)
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Update: according to a post on MGO this man is being represented by Jim Makowski.

    I'm glad to hear he has a good lawyer.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    This scenario again proves why it is important to always have your voice recorder running at all times when armed whether OC or CC. It wouldve been good for the shooter to be able to play the recording so the prosecutor can hear the time elapse from the striking of the truck with the bicycle, the enraged voice of the cyclist, and the number of punches to the face. Secondly, I wouldnt have tried to drive off with a man hanging off my truck trying to punch me in the face. What if he falls off, rolls under my truck and I accidentally run him over and he dies from his injuries? In confidence my lawayer would probably be telling me "From a legal standing you wouldve been better off shooting him."
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Shooting a man is a crime (SD aside). I think they'd let you go off fleeing the scene if you were getting a beat down.

    There's lots of facts yet to be known. I withhold judgement one way or another.

    Legally speaking this case may well hinge on if the shooting was "nessiccary" -- that is, if there was no other option that would have equally assured the survival of the defender.

    Again, this type of scenario has been discussed on MGO numerous times. Recently a man got charged and convicted of assault with a deadly weapon for pulling a gun on a guy who was about to deliver him a beat down. It was the first trial case Shyster lost.
    Phil - l'm guessing you have never been a real fight in your life. If I am wrong - sorry in advance. A person can deliver a flurry of blows very, very fast; which I bet was the case here. It was probably impossible to see anything clearly. To drive blindly away into oncoming traffic, across a crosswalk would be reckless at best.

    Point shooting this thug was most likely the only real option the driver had other than to just let the thug beat him to death...

    We can armchair general this to death, as I am sure the keyboard Kommando's over on MGO are doing. No one knows how they will react in a life or death situation until they are in one. In my honest opinion this guy made the best choice of the crappy choices he had.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 08-30-2012 at 08:43 PM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    It seems as if people are jumping to the conclusions without enough facts.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    It seems as if people are jumping to the conclusions without enough facts.
    Hopefully there is some video from a traffic camera if the driver is lucky? When all the evidence is weighed hopefully the driver will walk if he acted truly in self defense.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Hopefully there is some video from a traffic camera if the driver is lucky?
    Be lucky they are functional! When I got stabbed, my attacker ran towards a busy intersection with a traffic cam above each set of lights. When I asked the detective about retrieving the footage to make an I.D., he told me that the majority of traffics cameras in the greater Portland area are duds. Go figure
    Once more into the fray.
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    Michigan gun law questions answered

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/gun-law...te-of-michigan

    atty terry johnson on self defense
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    Wow he is a brilliant barrister.
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    I read this on MGO, glad it's here.

    If he drove off, he might have injured the assailant, and gotten sued by him later.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 08-30-2012 at 11:18 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    It seems as if people are jumping to the conclusions without enough facts.
    I've jumped to no conclusions here, have I?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Wow he is a brilliant barrister.
    he's pretty good, he gives the legal portion of rick ector's CPL class. he's well versed in open carry and covers it pretty thoroughly in the class.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    he's pretty good, he gives the legal portion of rick ector's CPL class. he's well versed in open carry and covers it pretty thoroughly in the class.
    I was just referring to the Mr. Obvious comment he made. But I guess many don't know that, so I'm sorry.

    “You should only use your firearm as a tool of last resort when you have to protect yourself from death, great bodily harm or criminal-sexual assault,” says Johnson.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting in Taylor

    I'm sure he was dumbing it down for the masses...

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    The victim (the shooter) has been released, police have not decided if he will face charges. I think the taylor pd has too many witnesses that will testify to self defense to even try to move forward with this case. The PD admitted that their evidence shows what witnesses say- the bicyclists caused the accident then attacked the man, so i guess that is a good thing.
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    Regular Member Rockhunter 1620's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The guy in the truck never got out of the truck. He could have drove away also.

    The law reads the deadly force must be "neccisary". This angle has been discussed on MGO many times.


    The prosecution may argue the truck driver could have rolled up his window and/or hit the gas.
    If the driver had left the scene, he would have been charged with "Leaving the scene of an accident", but more importantly, do we not have the right to "stand our ground" to defend ourselves againt such an unwarranted physical assault? And it is a proven fact that the human fist can very much be, a deadly weapon. Many a man throughout history has lost his life at the hands of another man, not possession of any weapons other than just his fists.

  25. #25
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    780.972 Use of deadly force by individual not engaged in commission of crime; conditions.
    Sec. 2.

    (1) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses deadly force may use deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with NO DUTY TO RETREAT if either of the following applies:

    (a) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent death of or imminent great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another individual.

    (b) The individual honestly and reasonably believes that the use of deadly force is necessary to prevent the imminent sexual assault of himself or herself or of another individual.

    (2) An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual.

    IMO he did't need to drive away. It seems (a) applies.

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