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Thread: Open Carry and the police ask for ID

  1. #1
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    Open Carry and the police ask for ID

    Good Evening Fellow OCer's,
    This question might have already been asked, but i have an "in the eye's of the Law" question. I live in Spokane Washington and its a open carry friendly state (whoot!) and for the most part when i OC in places like gas stations that i visit regularly or Albertsons or the local coffee shops, no one complains or even says anything. Now there have been a few times where i have been in my apartment working in my garage while OCing and had a cop drive by and they ironically are usually pretty nice to me. A few times they have asked from my ID and out of respect for them i usually just go ahead and give it to them, but i got to thinking, some states if an officer asks you for identification while carrying a firearm, of any kind, your required to produce one. Is washington state one such place? If i dont have to, what is the law in the eyes of washington that states that i dont have to?
    Thanks for the assist,
    Zen

    Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer

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    Of course now i find the answer both in the Forum and on the Internet! Seem the answer to my question has alot of factors. Washington State does not have a Stop and Identify law per say, but it does have a way around it. It has to do with "Civil Infractions".

    According to RCW 7.80.060, which states (copied and pasted from http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=7.80.060)

    "RCW 7.80.060
    Person receiving notice — Identification and detention.


    A person who is to receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

    A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

    Each agency authorized to issue civil infractions shall adopt rules on identification and detention of persons committing civil infractions."

    So boys and girls what exactly does this mean. Lets look at what a civil infraction is first, which is ironically pretty straight forward. Civil infractions are things such as jay walking, speeding, running a stop sign, and the big one, DISTURBING THE PEACE. So, scenario time, cop pulls by cause of a call that some dude or dudette, le you and me, are "carrying a gun", and they ask me to produce an ID. What do you do?

    Here's where we get down to the nitty gritty, unless you "receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050", which the officer has the right to tell you, the same way he/she can say, uh you were speeding here's your hefty ticket, you do not have to show your id. That would be a violation of the 4th amendment. Now, I'm not a lawyer, so do your own digging, but be smart, do your own reading.

    Thanks for the assist peeps!
    Zen

    Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Welcome to OCDO, lots of good people here.

    Since your question is state specific, moved it to the Washington sub-forum.
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    Regular Member OrangeIsTrouble's Avatar
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    To me, there is no such thing as being 'nice' to the police. The police can be 'nice' to me by leaving me the eff alone. I keep my CPL only in the vehicle. It stays in the vehicle. Do you honestly think you should be 'nice' to someone that comes to your property and starts snooping? Why would a badge change anything? As Navy LCDR says, now you know.


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    You were in your garage on your property and you surrendered your ID. I would simply politely ask the officer to leave or produce a warrant.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Am I being detained?
    Am I free to go?
    No? Leave

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    Am I being detained?
    Am I free to go?
    No? Leave

    Even if you're working in front of your own house/apartment?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    ..... i have been in my apartment working in my garage while OCing and had a cop drive by and they ironically are usually pretty nice to me. A few times they have asked from my ID and out of respect for them i usually just go ahead and give it to them,.........
    Were you on your own property? "Get off my lawn!!" Walt Kowalski


    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    You were in your garage on your property and you surrendered your ID..........
    You were disrespected for doing something legal. I see no reason to be polite in this incident. He comes up to you and starts with the ID thing for NOT breaking the law. The last time this happened to me I laughed at him and chided him for trying to intimidate me. Do not be intimidated just because he has a badge.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Two things I feel somewhat obligated to mention...
    1) "To give identification" does not necessarily mean to produce an identification document. RCW 7.80.050 seems to be quite specific in mentioning "...required to identify ... by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth."

    2) You can't produce what you're not carrying. If you do as I do and keep your driving license in your car (where you can't accidentally leave it at home) then you don't 'have identification' on you to produce. If Officer Friendly wants to see my driving license, I'll certainly oblige. I hope he has comfortable shoes 'cause sometimes I forget where I parked it he might have to accompany me for several miles as I try to remember exactly where it was or what car I was driving.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 08-31-2012 at 11:22 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Were you on your own property? "Get off my lawn!!" Walt Kowalski




    You were disrespected for doing something legal. I see no reason to be polite in this incident. He comes up to you and starts with the ID thing for NOT breaking the law. The last time this happened to me I laughed at him and chided him for trying to intimidate me. Do not be intimidated just because he has a badge.
    I am always polite even when I am telling them to leave it really is much more effective. Believe me I can be polite and make a point. I fully understand what you are saying.

  11. #11
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orphan View Post
    I am always polite even when I am telling them to leave it really is much more effective. Believe me I can be polite and make a point. I fully understand what you are saying.
    You can still be polite and laugh at them, especially when they know what they are doing.

    Having had a few of those encounters myself and knowing John, he was polite but showing his amusement at their attempt to invade his rights.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    If i dont have to, what is the law in the eyes of washington that states that i dont have to?
    The basis of all law in Washington, from the state constitution on down to the most minor regulation, is British Common Law. Put simply, anything that is not explicitly forbidden is legal. There is as such no need for a law saying you don't have to produce ID for you to not do so. For a police officer to demand ID and take action against you if you do not, requires that there be a law saying that he can.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer
    Greedo had a cool looking head and he died pretty quickly...

    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    A person who is to receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

    A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.
    This is only for a civil infraction. If you didn't commit one (OCing a pistol in your garage is not a civil infraction), then the police officer lacks reasonable articulable suspicion to demand to see your ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    So boys and girls what exactly does this mean. Lets look at what a civil infraction is first, which is ironically pretty straight forward. Civil infractions are things such as jay walking, speeding, running a stop sign, and the big one, DISTURBING THE PEACE. So, scenario time, cop pulls by cause of a call that some dude or dudette, le you and me, are "carrying a gun", and they ask me to produce an ID. What do you do?
    Exercising a constitutionally protected right is not disturbing the peace. If it were, you could report every police officer you saw to 911 for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace (something police are not exempt from).

    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    Here's where we get down to the nitty gritty, unless you "receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050", which the officer has the right to tell you, the same way he/she can say, uh you were speeding here's your hefty ticket, you do not have to show your id. That would be a violation of the 4th amendment. Now, I'm not a lawyer, so do your own digging, but be smart, do your own reading.
    Washington state has stronger constitutional protections when it comes to the U.S. constitution's Bill of Rights amendments than the U.S. constitution provides. And they're built right into our constitution, not added-on via amendments. Our equivalents of the second and fourth amendments are particularly strong.

    For an officer to make an arrest, detain you for investigation or write a civil infraction, he MUST have evidence that you have actually broken the law. The standard of evidence differs for an investigative stop vs an arrest, but he must be able to articulate his reasons such that a reasonable person would find those reasons reasonable (what a sentence!). False arrest is illegal in this state and so is unlawful detention. Police are not exempt from this, they cannot just slap handcuffs on random people or write citations that are unconnected from reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeninthesun View Post
    Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer
    Han shot first.

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Even if you're working in front of your own house/apartment?
    The equivalent act when working in your own garage (to use the OP's situation) would be to close the garage door in his face.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    You might want to read just a little bit further in RCW 7.80.050 my friend:
    It's up to the officer if they want to see an identification document or not...only when receiving an infraction, though. However, there is no penalty associated with violating this, other then further detention for only long enough to establish the identity of the subject.
    And if you were issued a jaywalking or speeding citation while working in your garage, you would reasonably expect it to be falsely issued, since you did not cross streets or drive at the time listed on the ticket. As such, the officer lacks reasonable suspicion to demand ID.
    Last edited by Difdi; 08-31-2012 at 06:07 PM. Reason: can't spell today

  13. #13
    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    You might want to read just a little bit further in RCW 7.80.050 my friend:
    It's up to the officer if they want to see an identification document or not...only when receiving an infraction, though. However, there is no penalty associated with violating this, other then further detention for only long enough to establish the identity of the subject.
    .
    Are you interpreting that RCW to mandate that each person shall carry his or her driving license or other identification at any time that they exit their domicile?
    Officer Friendly is free to ask, request, or even demand, but what I don't have in my immediate possession I can't produce on the spot. We can reschedule, or we can walk to wherever my "proper ID" is, or we can car pool if he insists. But I seriously doubt anyone is going to be convicted under that Washington code for not having their driving license on them.

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    I OC all the time. The closest I come to a county road is 1/2 mile where my mail box is next to teh county road. I have spoken to a Sheriff's deputy when I was up getting my mail...he was looking for someone and wanted to know if I knew/had seen/this person...I did not/had not and that was the end of the discussion, no one word about the Colt revolver on my hip..

    If you are on foot (that is, not in a vehicle) AND on private property, they have absolutely no excuse for coming on your property and asking you anything. I think my response would be to a request for ID out of the blue from a LEO: I live here, this is private property, why are you here? Is there something else I can help you with. No? I'm busy and would appreciate not being disturbed.

    BTW: you have just ID'd yourself as the homeowner this way, should it ever come to a ******* match.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    Even if you're working in front of your own house/apartment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post



    The equivalent act when working in your own garage (to use the OP's situation) would be to [u[close the garage door in his face[/u].


    Isn't that when they call out SWAT for an "armed, barricaded suspect"?
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Open Carry and the police ask for ID

    Suspected of what?

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Officer wants to write me a citation for jaywalking. He says, show me your ID. I say, I am John Smith, I live at 234 Main St, and I was born on Jan 14, 1925, I do not have any identification in my possession at this time. Must it be considered reasonable identification just because I told the officer that information? What if I just moved to Washington and the Washington Department of Licensing has no information on John Smith living on Main St? What if I am active duty military and not required to obtain a Washington ID? I could then easily fall under the provision of RCW 7.80.050 of being unable to reasonably identify myself if I did not possess a government issued ID at the time. I still can't be convicted of even refusing to provide ID even if I did possess it, because there is no criminal penalty associated with RCW 7.80.050.
    Wow, you've been around for quite awhile
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