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Open Carry and the police ask for ID

zeninthesun

New member
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Spokane Washington
Good Evening Fellow OCer's,
This question might have already been asked, but i have an "in the eye's of the Law" question. I live in Spokane Washington and its a open carry friendly state (whoot!) and for the most part when i OC in places like gas stations that i visit regularly or Albertsons or the local coffee shops, no one complains or even says anything. Now there have been a few times where i have been in my apartment working in my garage while OCing and had a cop drive by and they ironically are usually pretty nice to me. A few times they have asked from my ID and out of respect for them i usually just go ahead and give it to them, but i got to thinking, some states if an officer asks you for identification while carrying a firearm, of any kind, your required to produce one. Is washington state one such place? If i dont have to, what is the law in the eyes of washington that states that i dont have to?
Thanks for the assist,
Zen

Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer
 

zeninthesun

New member
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
8
Location
Spokane Washington
Of course now i find the answer both in the Forum and on the Internet! Seem the answer to my question has alot of factors. Washington State does not have a Stop and Identify law per say, but it does have a way around it. It has to do with "Civil Infractions".

According to RCW 7.80.060, which states (copied and pasted from http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=7.80.060)

"RCW 7.80.060
Person receiving notice — Identification and detention.


A person who is to receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

Each agency authorized to issue civil infractions shall adopt rules on identification and detention of persons committing civil infractions."

So boys and girls what exactly does this mean. Lets look at what a civil infraction is first, which is ironically pretty straight forward. Civil infractions are things such as jay walking, speeding, running a stop sign, and the big one, DISTURBING THE PEACE. So, scenario time, cop pulls by cause of a call that some dude or dudette, le you and me, are "carrying a gun", and they ask me to produce an ID. What do you do?

Here's where we get down to the nitty gritty, unless you "receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050", which the officer has the right to tell you, the same way he/she can say, uh you were speeding here's your hefty ticket, you do not have to show your id. That would be a violation of the 4th amendment. Now, I'm not a lawyer, so do your own digging, but be smart, do your own reading.

Thanks for the assist peeps!
Zen

Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
Welcome to OCDO, lots of good people here.

Since your question is state specific, moved it to the Washington sub-forum.
 

OrangeIsTrouble

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2009
Messages
1,398
Location
Tukwila, WA, ,
To me, there is no such thing as being 'nice' to the police. The police can be 'nice' to me by leaving me the eff alone. I keep my CPL only in the vehicle. It stays in the vehicle. Do you honestly think you should be 'nice' to someone that comes to your property and starts snooping? Why would a badge change anything? As Navy LCDR says, now you know.
 

Jeff Hayes

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
2,569
Location
Long gone
You were in your garage on your property and you surrendered your ID. I would simply politely ask the officer to leave or produce a warrant.
 

MSG Laigaie

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2011
Messages
3,239
Location
Philipsburg, Montana
..... i have been in my apartment working in my garage while OCing and had a cop drive by and they ironically are usually pretty nice to me. A few times they have asked from my ID and out of respect for them i usually just go ahead and give it to them,.........

Were you on your own property? "Get off my lawn!!" Walt Kowalski


You were in your garage on your property and you surrendered your ID..........

You were disrespected for doing something legal. I see no reason to be polite in this incident. He comes up to you and starts with the ID thing for NOT breaking the law. The last time this happened to me I laughed at him and chided him for trying to intimidate me. Do not be intimidated just because he has a badge.
 

Fallschirjmäger

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
3,823
Location
Cumming, Georgia, USA
Two things I feel somewhat obligated to mention...
1) "To give identification" does not necessarily mean to produce an identification document. RCW 7.80.050 seems to be quite specific in mentioning "...required to identify ... by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth."

2) You can't produce what you're not carrying. If you do as I do and keep your driving license in your car (where you can't accidentally leave it at home) then you don't 'have identification' on you to produce. If Officer Friendly wants to see my driving license, I'll certainly oblige. I hope he has comfortable shoes 'cause sometimes I forget where I parked it he might have to accompany me for several miles as I try to remember exactly where it was or what car I was driving.
 
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Jeff Hayes

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Long gone
Were you on your own property? "Get off my lawn!!" Walt Kowalski




You were disrespected for doing something legal. I see no reason to be polite in this incident. He comes up to you and starts with the ID thing for NOT breaking the law. The last time this happened to me I laughed at him and chided him for trying to intimidate me. Do not be intimidated just because he has a badge.

I am always polite even when I am telling them to leave it really is much more effective. Believe me I can be polite and make a point. I fully understand what you are saying.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
I am always polite even when I am telling them to leave it really is much more effective. Believe me I can be polite and make a point. I fully understand what you are saying.

You can still be polite and laugh at them, especially when they know what they are doing.

Having had a few of those encounters myself and knowing John, he was polite but showing his amusement at their attempt to invade his rights.
 

Difdi

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2010
Messages
987
Location
Seattle, Washington, USA
If i dont have to, what is the law in the eyes of washington that states that i dont have to?

The basis of all law in Washington, from the state constitution on down to the most minor regulation, is British Common Law. Put simply, anything that is not explicitly forbidden is legal. There is as such no need for a law saying you don't have to produce ID for you to not do so. For a police officer to demand ID and take action against you if you do not, requires that there be a law saying that he can.

Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer

Greedo had a cool looking head and he died pretty quickly...

A person who is to receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050 is required to identify himself or herself to the enforcement officer by giving his or her name, address, and date of birth. Upon the request of the officer, the person shall produce reasonable identification, including a driver's license or identicard.

A person who is unable or unwilling to reasonably identify himself or herself to an enforcement officer may be detained for a period of time not longer than is reasonably necessary to identify the person for purposes of issuing a civil infraction.

This is only for a civil infraction. If you didn't commit one (OCing a pistol in your garage is not a civil infraction), then the police officer lacks reasonable articulable suspicion to demand to see your ID.

So boys and girls what exactly does this mean. Lets look at what a civil infraction is first, which is ironically pretty straight forward. Civil infractions are things such as jay walking, speeding, running a stop sign, and the big one, DISTURBING THE PEACE. So, scenario time, cop pulls by cause of a call that some dude or dudette, le you and me, are "carrying a gun", and they ask me to produce an ID. What do you do?

Exercising a constitutionally protected right is not disturbing the peace. If it were, you could report every police officer you saw to 911 for disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace (something police are not exempt from).

Here's where we get down to the nitty gritty, unless you "receive a notice of civil infraction under RCW 7.80.050", which the officer has the right to tell you, the same way he/she can say, uh you were speeding here's your hefty ticket, you do not have to show your id. That would be a violation of the 4th amendment. Now, I'm not a lawyer, so do your own digging, but be smart, do your own reading.

Washington state has stronger constitutional protections when it comes to the U.S. constitution's Bill of Rights amendments than the U.S. constitution provides. And they're built right into our constitution, not added-on via amendments. Our equivalents of the second and fourth amendments are particularly strong.

For an officer to make an arrest, detain you for investigation or write a civil infraction, he MUST have evidence that you have actually broken the law. The standard of evidence differs for an investigative stop vs an arrest, but he must be able to articulate his reasons such that a reasonable person would find those reasons reasonable (what a sentence!). False arrest is illegal in this state and so is unlawful detention. Police are not exempt from this, they cannot just slap handcuffs on random people or write citations that are unconnected from reality.

Those with the coolest head tend to live alot longer

Han shot first.

Even if you're working in front of your own house/apartment?

The equivalent act when working in your own garage (to use the OP's situation) would be to close the garage door in his face.

You might want to read just a little bit further in RCW 7.80.050 my friend:
It's up to the officer if they want to see an identification document or not...only when receiving an infraction, though. However, there is no penalty associated with violating this, other then further detention for only long enough to establish the identity of the subject.

And if you were issued a jaywalking or speeding citation while working in your garage, you would reasonably expect it to be falsely issued, since you did not cross streets or drive at the time listed on the ticket. As such, the officer lacks reasonable suspicion to demand ID.
 
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Fallschirjmäger

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Cumming, Georgia, USA
You might want to read just a little bit further in RCW 7.80.050 my friend:
It's up to the officer if they want to see an identification document or not...only when receiving an infraction, though. However, there is no penalty associated with violating this, other then further detention for only long enough to establish the identity of the subject.
.
Are you interpreting that RCW to mandate that each person shall carry his or her driving license or other identification at any time that they exit their domicile?
Officer Friendly is free to ask, request, or even demand, but what I don't have in my immediate possession I can't produce on the spot. We can reschedule, or we can walk to wherever my "proper ID" is, or we can car pool if he insists. But I seriously doubt anyone is going to be convicted under that Washington code for not having their driving license on them.
 

hermannr

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2011
Messages
2,327
Location
Okanogan Highland
I OC all the time. The closest I come to a county road is 1/2 mile where my mail box is next to teh county road. I have spoken to a Sheriff's deputy when I was up getting my mail...he was looking for someone and wanted to know if I knew/had seen/this person...I did not/had not and that was the end of the discussion, no one word about the Colt revolver on my hip..

If you are on foot (that is, not in a vehicle) AND on private property, they have absolutely no excuse for coming on your property and asking you anything. I think my response would be to a request for ID out of the blue from a LEO: I live here, this is private property, why are you here? Is there something else I can help you with. No? I'm busy and would appreciate not being disturbed.

BTW: you have just ID'd yourself as the homeowner this way, should it ever come to a ******* match.
 

EMNofSeattle

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
3,670
Location
S. Kitsap, Washington state
Officer wants to write me a citation for jaywalking. He says, show me your ID. I say, I am John Smith, I live at 234 Main St, and I was born on Jan 14, 1925, I do not have any identification in my possession at this time. Must it be considered reasonable identification just because I told the officer that information? What if I just moved to Washington and the Washington Department of Licensing has no information on John Smith living on Main St? What if I am active duty military and not required to obtain a Washington ID? I could then easily fall under the provision of RCW 7.80.050 of being unable to reasonably identify myself if I did not possess a government issued ID at the time. I still can't be convicted of even refusing to provide ID even if I did possess it, because there is no criminal penalty associated with RCW 7.80.050.

Wow, you've been around for quite awhile :cool:
 
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