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Thread: First stop Canton

  1. #1
    Regular Member Garystarcher's Avatar
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    First stop Canton

    My wife and I stopped at the giant eagle on Raff rd tonight 08-30-12 at 21:20. As we were walking in we noticed a canton city police officer do guard duty outside the entrance. We did a little shopping at approximately 21:40 we checked out and I noticed said officer looking at my sidearm.

    We preceded to the front of the store and stopped at the lottery machine to try our luck. We started walking again and an employee of giant eagle blocked us from going out the left entrance and acted like it was an accident. I then hear behind me sir so I turn around and there stands the officer and the following conversation took place.

    Officer: Sir

    Me: Me?

    Officer: Yeah-Do you have a CCW?

    Me: No,I'm open carrying and open carry is legal

    Officer: Do you have ID

    Me: Yes I do But I am not required to show you

    Officer: What's your name?

    Me: I am not required to tell you

    Officer: This is a state liquor store

    Me: Am I suspected of a crime?

    Officer: Well this is a state liquor store

    Me: Okey. I am not consuming

    Officer: Do you realize as soon as you get into a car with a loaded gun it's illegal?

    Me: Yes that is why I unload

    Officer: Well keep moving

    The officer then proceeds to follow us to our vehicle and proceeded to run our plates and asked dispatch if the male subject had any violent offenses on record. My wife and I loaded the bags into the car with him standing there watching us. I then stripped my sidearm all the way down with slide off and spring and barrel out and magazine laying right beside it. I then took the rounds with me. As I was picking the rounds up one fell to the ground I turn around and the then I have a another short conversation with him.

    Officer: You better pick that up or I'm going to hit you with littering

    Me: ok will do sir.

    Me: Am I free to go or are you detaining me

    Officer: I never detained you

    Me: I realize that but I just wanted to make sure

    Me: what's your name and badge number.

    Officer: Sgt. Brian McWilliams badge number 39

    Me: okey thank you sir

    Officer: Just watch out there is someone behind you

    My question is can he legally follow us out and run our plates? By the way this is my first encounter and I was just a tad bit nervous and he was very arrogant. Should I call his supervisor and file a complaint? Any help or comments will be appreciated thank you.
    Last edited by Garystarcher; 08-31-2012 at 10:43 AM.

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    Regular Member Maine Expat's Avatar
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    Whether he can legally run your plates for no reason or not, you seemed to have handled the encounter well. Our resident anti-IDers should be well pleased.
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    Professional Response

    I am always impressed how well OC'ers respond when they are unnecessarily stopped for doing nothing wrong. Even if this was your 10th stop, you handled it well. I have a suggestion, even though many on this site have told me I am naive. I would call his supervisor and request a meeting. At the meeting, I would tell the supervisor that initially I wanted to file a complaint, but in the interest of "working together," I first want to discuss the incident with you to see if we are all on the same page so that a repeat of this type of encounter will not happen. Be respectful of the supervisor, as you have conveyed to us that you are based on your encounter. I will be accused of going off the reservation on the following, but perhaps, even invite the supervisor and/or the LEO who stopped you to an open carry breakfast or dinner. Maybe even volunteer to do a group litter pick-up around the police station or wash a few of the LEO's cars (while open carrying, of course.) Although this sounds like - "kill them with kindness" - I believe it is an expression of how we really are. You are an asset to all of us.

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    ...Officer: You better pick that up or I'm going to hit you with littering...
    What an @ss - and not just because of the quoted portion of your post.

    And unfortunately, by repeatedly answering questions you didn't have to served only to encourage him.

    Next time when you run into an officer like that, answer only if the law compels you to do so.

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    Giant Eagle corporate policy is to mirror Ohio law. A letter or E mail to the Head of CS might just get this officer a talking too. If you like I would take your case and present it for you here:

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/202591819858863/
    Last edited by JSlack7851; 08-31-2012 at 05:49 PM.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Garystarcher's Avatar
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    First stop Canton

    Thanks for your replies I plan on writing Giant eagle corporate and calling to schedule a meeting with the sergeants supervisor. Jslack7851 if you want to put it up there I'd be more then happy to give you anything you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    Officer: This is a state liquor store
    More stupidity--or out and out lying right there on the officer's part. Liquor stores in Ohio were privatized several years ago, even if some of the marquee signs outside them allude otherwise. (Back when they were state-owned/operated Ohio was getting its fiscal butt handed to it by pretty much all the border states' prices on alcohol. Even now they still meddle enough with the by-law-minimum pricing that each of the six bridges from Cincy into northern Ky. have very successful package stores at the southern end of the ramps.)

    Sorry about the drift but if the cop in thsi encounter thinks Ohio still "owns" the liquor stores he's perhaps more out-of-date on that topic than his knowledge of firearms laws. Or, a bully/liar.

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    Regular Member Garystarcher's Avatar
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    First stop Canton

    Thanks Brian that's is really good information I didn't know that. I'm going to go with bully on this one he was just dumb founded I told him I wasn't going to show him ID.
    Last edited by Garystarcher; 09-01-2012 at 01:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian D. View Post
    he's perhaps more out-of-date on that topic than his knowledge of firearms laws. Or, a bully/liar.
    All three.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    Thanks for your replies I plan on writing Giant eagle corporate and calling to schedule a meeting with the sergeants supervisor. Jslack7851 if you want to put it up there I'd be more then happy to give you anything you need.
    Jslack7851@yahoo.com All I would need is your name, date this happened, which store, and possibly the name of the officer/ part time employee. I have a letter made up I used for Dicks Sporting Goods, all I would need to do is change a few things around.

    Dick's escorted one of our members out of the store due to his OC in their store. I wrote a couple of letters and now, not only will Dicks be friendly to OC'ers here in Ohio, but reviews were underway for all other States who allow OC. Store managers as well as associates were being brought up to speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carsontech View Post
    I believe you met Sgt. Bryan McWilliams:
    Was this indeed the Officer who harassed you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    Was this indeed the Officer who harassed you?
    Hopefully the OP will respond so we can make sure. It does deem that a Sgt. Bryan McWilliams hangs out at the Giant Eagle at 608 RAFF RD SW, per these police reports:

    http://webreports.taccomputer.net/po...5/I1210677.PDF

    http://webreports.taccomputer.net/po...5/I1203335.PDF

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    Regular Member Garystarcher's Avatar
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    First stop Canton

    Yes that is the officer that harassed my wife and I. I called Giant Eagle and am waiting on a call back from the loss prevention and from the manager on duty that night(Eric). The manger I spoke with was nice about it and told me the policy is to allow what is legal in the state and is sorry for what happened and they had a mangers meeting about it and all the managers know the store policy. I also put a call in to the police department and found the supervisors name is LT John Gabbard he however was not in but is do to return Tuesday.

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    How about a letter to store management about the officer they contract/requested/allow to loiter is harassing customers. And that you don't like to be harassed and are willing and likely to take your business elsewhere to avoid it.
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    I just got off the phone with Mr. Tulsa, loss prevention manager, Giant Eagle.

    GE does, in fact mirror Ohio law. GE has no problem with OC either. He hasn't had a chance to talk to Sgt. McWilliams, but I encouraged him to do so. I wouldn't let that part of it go. I explained that under Ohio law McWilliams had no right to even approach Mr. Starcher with out RAS, and I explained to him exactly what RAS was. He talked about that being a bad neighborhood and that they've had shootings, hence I explained why people are arming them self's.

    He had no idea why Sgt. McWilliams approached Mr. Starcher in the first place, so I encouraged him to talk to him and find out why. I did speak about some of the guys wanting not to do business with GE due to this harassment, and he assured me that Open Carriers were indeed welcome.

    I was also told that GE did have signs up and that they were taken down with no intention to re post any of the stores.

    Our phone conversation ended on the note that Sgt. McWilliams would be questioned as to why Mr. Starcher was approached in the first place. If indeed, it was just b/c of OC, there would be changes made. I'm sure it didn't have anything about a harassment lawsuit that some wanted to file, only that we believed that the diplomatic approach was the best.

    I talked about Hareuhal's case also but the Brooklyn store wasn't in his district. I've yet to hear from anyone about that yet, but I'll have the same conversation with him/her about harassment over OC.

    Upon talking to Mr. Tulsa, a permit holder in Ohio, he would have no problem offering ID to LEO, b/c he would have nothing to hide, at which I explained that here in the gun community we take our civil and legal rights very seriously, short of making a mistake and being arrested.

    I believe Sgt. McWilliams will be questioned. I'm curious as to what the answers will be. Maybe sometime in the future, not until Mr.Tulsa has a chance to talk to Sgt. McWilliams, a planed OC could be done in that store again. I have Mr. Tulsa's direct phone number, should Sgt. McWilliams need to call and clarify GE policy towards OC.

    I too would be willing to drive to Canton for just such a event. Any body else?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    My wife and I stopped at the giant eagle on Raff rd tonight 08-30-12 at 21:20. As we were walking in we noticed a canton city police officer do guard duty outside the entrance. We did a little shopping at approximately 21:40 we checked out and I noticed said officer looking at my sidearm.

    We preceded to the front of the store and stopped at the lottery machine to try our luck. We started walking again and an employee of giant eagle blocked us from going out the left entrance and acted like it was an accident. I then hear behind me sir so I turn around and there stands the officer and the following conversation took place.

    Officer: Sir

    Me: Me?

    Officer: Yeah-Do you have a CCW?

    Me: No,I'm open carrying and open carry is legal

    Officer: Do you have ID

    Me: Yes I do But I am not required to show you

    Officer: What's your name?

    Me: I am not required to tell you

    Officer: This is a state liquor store

    Me: Am I suspected of a crime?

    Officer: Well this is a state liquor store

    Me: Okey. I am not consuming

    Officer: Do you realize as soon as you get into a car with a loaded gun it's illegal?

    Me: Yes that is why I unload

    Officer: Well keep moving

    The officer then proceeds to follow us to our vehicle and proceeded to run our plates and asked dispatch if the male subject had any violent offenses on record. My wife and I loaded the bags into the car with him standing there watching us. I then stripped my sidearm all the way down with slide off and spring and barrel out and magazine laying right beside it. I then took the rounds with me. As I was picking the rounds up one fell to the ground I turn around and the then I have a another short conversation with him.

    Officer: You better pick that up or I'm going to hit you with littering

    Me: ok will do sir.

    Me: Am I free to go or are you detaining me

    Officer: I never detained you

    Me: I realize that but I just wanted to make sure

    Me: what's your name and badge number.

    Officer: Sgt. Brian McWilliams badge number 39

    Me: okey thank you sir

    Officer: Just watch out there is someone behind you

    My question is can he legally follow us out and run our plates? By the way this is my first encounter and I was just a tad bit nervous and he was very arrogant. Should I call his supervisor and file a complaint? Any help or comments will be appreciated thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    I just got off the phone with Mr. Tulsa, loss prevention manager, Giant Eagle.

    GE does, in fact mirror Ohio law. GE has no problem with OC either. He hasn't had a chance to talk to Sgt. McWilliams, but I encouraged him to do so. I wouldn't let that part of it go. I explained that under Ohio law McWilliams had no right to even approach Mr. Starcher with out RAS, and I explained to him exactly what RAS was. He talked about that being a bad neighborhood and that they've had shootings, hence I explained why people are arming them self's.

    He had no idea why Sgt. McWilliams approached Mr. Starcher in the first place, so I encouraged him to talk to him and find out why. I did speak about some of the guys wanting not to do business with GE due to this harassment, and he assured me that Open Carriers were indeed welcome.

    I was also told that GE did have signs up and that they were taken down with no intention to re post any of the stores.

    Our phone conversation ended on the note that Sgt. McWilliams would be questioned as to why Mr. Starcher was approached in the first place. If indeed, it was just b/c of OC, there would be changes made. I'm sure it didn't have anything about a harassment lawsuit that some wanted to file, only that we believed that the diplomatic approach was the best.

    I talked about Hareuhal's case also but the Brooklyn store wasn't in his district. I've yet to hear from anyone about that yet, but I'll have the same conversation with him/her about harassment over OC.

    Upon talking to Mr. Tulsa, a permit holder in Ohio, he would have no problem offering ID to LEO, b/c he would have nothing to hide, at which I explained that here in the gun community we take our civil and legal rights very seriously, short of making a mistake and being arrested.

    I believe Sgt. McWilliams will be questioned. I'm curious as to what the answers will be. Maybe sometime in the future, not until Mr.Tulsa has a chance to talk to Sgt. McWilliams, a planed OC could be done in that store again. I have Mr. Tulsa's direct phone number, should Sgt. McWilliams need to call and clarify GE policy towards OC.

    I too would be willing to drive to Canton for just such a event. Any body else?
    First, let me say that I am for OC. With that being said, an Officer can approach you and ask you questions. There are three kinds of police encounters. A consensual encounter, a detention (RAS), and arrest (PC). You had a consensual encounter, especially if he says you're not being detained, never was, and is just asking questions.

    US v DeBerry

    At least as far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned, police do not have to have any degree of reasonable suspicion in order to accost a person and say they want to talk to him.  Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 497-98, 103 S.Ct. 1319, 1323-24, 75 L.Ed.2d 229 (1983) (plurality opinion);  United States v. Rodriguez, 69 F.3d 136, 141 (7th Cir.1995);  United States v. Serna-Barreto, supra, 842 F.2d at 966.   The “reason” for this rule, if it can be called a reason, is that the mere accosting of a person is not a search or seizure of him, and so is not within the amendment's scope.   This seems a little feeble, since very few people think themselves free not to stop if a policeman accosts them.   But the law is well established that if the officer asks rather than commands, the person accosted is not seized, and so the protections of the Fourth Amendment do not attach.

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    Funny, it didn't sound too consensual to me. Sounded more like harassment. Turn and walk away, you say? Sounds more like resisting arrest. I could just see Mr. Starcher walking through the store with that cop yelling, two steps behind him, got any ID? Lemme see your drivers license, lemme see your ccw, lol. Then probably LEO would be on their radio reporting a possible fleeing felon.

    Citizens don't know whats going through LEO's mind, very few would handle this harassment, without giving up their rights as well as Gary did. Kudos!

    I dread the day when LEO start questioning people on the street under the guise of 'consensual encounter', this term is just used by LEO for fishing for something, b/c they got nuttin.

    Here's my letter to the Chief of Canton PD.

    Dear Sir:
    As administrator to Open Carry Advocates, a Second Amendment rights group, it is part of my job to inform the public, and sometimes appointed public servants, such as yourself as too the right of law abiding citizens that open carry, in Ohio, is legal and not subject to a Terry stop.

    One of our members has made a complaint against one of your officers while shopping at Giant Eagle.

    It seems that for no other reason Sgt. McWilliams stopped Mr. Gary Starcher with no RAS that he was doing anything illegal, just the fact that he was exercising his right to openly carry his sidearm.

    I could point out the Second Amendment, Article 1, Section 4 of the Ohio Constitution and the fact that Ohio's Attorney General, in his Ohio Carry Law pamphlet, where he specifically spells out on page 17 that Open Carry of a side arm is legal, but I bet you know all of this already.

    Sgt. McWilliams went on to ask for ID, which is against Terry vs. Ohio. He then went on to suggest that since Giant Eagle sold liquor, Mr. Starcher wasn't allowed to carry there.

    Sir, all 4 of us know that as long as one's not consuming, one has the right to carry in restaurants, bars, or any place else that does serve.

    I've been in contact with the District manager of Loss Prevention, Giant Eagle, Mr. Tulsa, Sgt. McWilliams immediate superior. He tells me that GE has the policy of mirroring Ohio law and that he has no problem with open carry. It is my understanding that he too will contact Mr. McWilliams for his side of the story. Sgt. McWilliams was spoken very highly of.

    So, I guess my question to you is: Why the harassment, why the outright lie to an otherwise, law abiding citizen who was just going about his business. Is this harassment some unwritten policy of CPD? It seems like not much has changed since Officer Harless left.

    In order to maybe help, I might offer this memo from the Cincinnati Police Chief, James E. Craig, section 3 is pertinent:

    http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/...F0/showMeta/0/
    I look forward to your reply.

    Jeff Slack
    Administrator
    OC

  19. #19
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LESGTINCT View Post
    First, let me say that I am for OC. With that being said, an Officer can approach you and ask you questions. There are three kinds of police encounters. A consensual encounter, a detention (RAS), and arrest (PC). You had a consensual encounter, especially if he says you're not being detained, never was, and is just asking questions.

    US v DeBerry

    At least as far as the Fourth Amendment is concerned, police do not have to have any degree of reasonable suspicion in order to accost a person and say they want to talk to him.  Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 497-98, 103 S.Ct. 1319, 1323-24, 75 L.Ed.2d 229 (1983) (plurality opinion);  United States v. Rodriguez, 69 F.3d 136, 141 (7th Cir.1995);  United States v. Serna-Barreto, supra, 842 F.2d at 966.   The “reason” for this rule, if it can be called a reason, is that the mere accosting of a person is not a search or seizure of him, and so is not within the amendment's scope.   This seems a little feeble, since very few people think themselves free not to stop if a policeman accosts them.   But the law is well established that if the officer asks rather than commands, the person accosted is not seized, and so the protections of the Fourth Amendment do not attach.
    Very good point. There is the case law and then there is the citizen's perception. I ignore cops unless I am not permitted to ignore cops. I do not consent, ever, and display my non-consent by ignoring cops.

    Cop: "Hey buddy can we have a word?"
    Me: ignoring cop, keeps walking.....or, turn and walk away.....cops really like that one.
    Cop: "Hey buddy......"

    Now, the question is whether or not after the first ignoring the cop keeps asking and you keep walking, get the picture?

    If he keeps asking, by following you, but does not actually stop you from walking is he just very persistent in his attempt to engage in a "casual" conversation? If he continues his efforts is now harassing you?

    Will his buddies assist him in his efforts to engage in a casual conversation?

    What is the law on me doing the above to my fellow citizen that I choose to engage in casual conversation without invitation? Does that citizen have recourse? Can that citizen call a cop to prevented me from any further "hey buddy....?"
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    Funny, it didn't sound too consensual to me. Sounded more like harassment. Turn and walk away, you say? Sounds more like resisting arrest. I could just see Mr. Starcher walking through the store with that cop yelling, two steps behind him, got any ID? Lemme see your drivers license, lemme see your ccw, lol. Then probably LEO would be on their radio reporting a possible fleeing felon.

    Citizens don't know whats going through LEO's mind, very few would handle this harassment, without giving up their rights as well as Gary did. Kudos!

    I dread the day when LEO start questioning people on the street under the guise of 'consensual encounter', this term is just used by LEO for fishing for something, b/c they got nuttin.

    Here's my letter to the Chief of Canton PD.

    Dear Sir:
    As administrator to Open Carry Advocates, a Second Amendment rights group, it is part of my job to inform the public, and sometimes appointed public servants, such as yourself as too the right of law abiding citizens that open carry, in Ohio, is legal and not subject to a Terry stop.

    One of our members has made a complaint against one of your officers while shopping at Giant Eagle.

    It seems that for no other reason Sgt. McWilliams stopped Mr. Gary Starcher with no RAS that he was doing anything illegal, just the fact that he was exercising his right to openly carry his sidearm.

    I could point out the Second Amendment, Article 1, Section 4 of the Ohio Constitution and the fact that Ohio's Attorney General, in his Ohio Carry Law pamphlet, where he specifically spells out on page 17 that Open Carry of a side arm is legal, but I bet you know all of this already.

    Sgt. McWilliams went on to ask for ID, which is against Terry vs. Ohio. He then went on to suggest that since Giant Eagle sold liquor, Mr. Starcher wasn't allowed to carry there.

    Sir, all 4 of us know that as long as one's not consuming, one has the right to carry in restaurants, bars, or any place else that does serve.

    I've been in contact with the District manager of Loss Prevention, Giant Eagle, Mr. Tulsa, Sgt. McWilliams immediate superior. He tells me that GE has the policy of mirroring Ohio law and that he has no problem with open carry. It is my understanding that he too will contact Mr. McWilliams for his side of the story. Sgt. McWilliams was spoken very highly of.

    So, I guess my question to you is: Why the harassment, why the outright lie to an otherwise, law abiding citizen who was just going about his business. Is this harassment some unwritten policy of CPD? It seems like not much has changed since Officer Harless left.

    In order to maybe help, I might offer this memo from the Cincinnati Police Chief, James E. Craig, section 3 is pertinent:

    http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/...F0/showMeta/0/
    I look forward to your reply.

    Jeff Slack
    Administrator
    OC
    Harrassment? Maybe. Do you have a complaint? Maybe. Detention, no. Think what you want it is what it is. PO's can acost citizens and ask questions without invoking the 4th Amendment as US v DeBerry says.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Very good point. There is the case law and then there is the citizen's perception. I ignore cops unless I am not permitted to ignore cops. I do not consent, ever, and display my non-consent by ignoring cops.

    Cop: "Hey buddy can we have a word?"
    Me: ignoring cop, keeps walking.....or, turn and walk away.....cops really like that one.
    Cop: "Hey buddy......"

    Now, the question is whether or not after the first ignoring the cop keeps asking and you keep walking, get the picture?

    If he keeps asking, by following you, but does not actually stop you from walking is he just very persistent in his attempt to engage in a "casual" conversation? If he continues his efforts is now harassing you?

    Will his buddies assist him in his efforts to engage in a casual conversation?

    What is the law on me doing the above to my fellow citizen that I choose to engage in casual conversation without invitation? Does that citizen have recourse? Can that citizen call a cop to prevented me from any further "hey buddy....?"
    Like I said, complaint, maybe. This would be handled by the PD and an order would be given to the PO to knock it off. Detention, NO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Very good point. There is the case law and then there is the citizen's perception. I ignore cops unless I am not permitted to ignore cops. I do not consent, ever, and display my non-consent by ignoring cops.

    Cop: "Hey buddy can we have a word?"
    Me: ignoring cop, keeps walking.....or, turn and walk away.....cops really like that one.
    Cop: "Hey buddy......"

    Now, the question is whether or not after the first ignoring the cop keeps asking and you keep walking, get the picture?

    If he keeps asking, by following you, but does not actually stop you from walking is he just very persistent in his attempt to engage in a "casual" conversation? If he continues his efforts is now harassing you?

    Will his buddies assist him in his efforts to engage in a casual conversation?

    What is the law on me doing the above to my fellow citizen that I choose to engage in casual conversation without invitation? Does that citizen have recourse? Can that citizen call a cop to prevented me from any further "hey buddy....?"
    A "Stop" occurs when a PO has in some way restrained the liberty of a citizen and in view of all the circumstances a reasonable person would believe he is not free to leave. IMO if you keep walking then you are freely leaving. Every situation is different and we can change the circumstances a million different ways. In this case, you were not detained but by all means file a complaint

  23. #23
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    From the court opinion.
    The only fact that saves the officer's stop of DeBerry, in my opinion, is the fact that it is unlawful in Illinois to carry a concealed weapon.
    DeBarry is not set in stone.

    Actually the circumstance is the same every time a cop is attempting to consensually contact a citizen. If that citizen ignores the cop the cop has only one of two options, go to the next level or suck up the fact that he got ignored and let it go.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  24. #24
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LESGTINCT View Post
    A "Stop" occurs when a PO has in some way restrained the liberty of a citizen and in view of all the circumstances a reasonable person would believe he is not free to leave. IMO if you keep walking then you are freely leaving. Every situation is different and we can change the circumstances a million different ways. In this case, you were not detained but by all means file a complaint
    When does a citizen reasonably believe he is not free to leave? When a second cop shows up? A third? The cop drives ahead to try again the casual contact. There just ain't that many things a cop can do before he is attempting to "retrain" your movements. If the cop has to "stop you" to casually contact you you are seized. Even the DeBarry opinion realizes this in a round about way.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    From the court opinion.DeBarry is not set in stone.

    Actually the circumstance is the same every time a cop is attempting to consensually contact a citizen. If that citizen ignores the cop the cop has only one of two options, go to the next level or suck up the fact that he got ignored and let it go.
    No, not set in stone but does have weight since it is the US Supreme Court. Otherwise look at Florida v Bostick which is a US Supreme Court ruling which states "Would a reasonable person feel free to decline the PO's request...." In this case you did decline.

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