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Using deadly force when confronted with a "Forcible Felony"

SouthernBoy

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So I was doing some research and came across something that bothers me. Apparently VA does not allow the use of lethal force unless one believes he is in imminent danger of loss of life or great bodily injury. Even in one's own home, one can not use LF against an intruder unless he believes he personally is at risk. VA also does not recognize "presumed fear" of an intruder being in your home. Does this mean that if someone enters my home in the middle of the night, unarmed, and begins taking my tv out the door, that I can not defend my home?

Also, this seems to apply to being held up for my wallet without being held at gun- or knife-point, or even a carjacking under the same circumstance.

In case anyone was wondering, here is the link that sparked my curiosity:
http://rvanews.com/news/florida-vs-virginia-comparing-self-defense-laws/58745

-Eddy

The phase is "serious bodily harm". You do not have to be in fear of death before you engage in the use of deadly force. What is serious bodily harm? Examples are broken bones, lacerations, burns, disfiguring injuries, puncture wounds, gun shot wounds, temporary unconsciousness, and similar injuries.

There are five felonies for which deadly force can be a response: rape, robbery, murder, arson, and burglary. Remember if someone breaks into your home in the daytime, they are not a burglar. They are a trespasser and trespassers are not one of the five felonies. If, on the other hand, the break-in occurs at night, then the perp is a burglar.

Now as for the TV going out the back door, if you see this and you yell at the perp and he takes off, you must not fire at him. On the other hand, if when you yell at him, he turns and comes at you, he is a threat and you must assume the worse case scenario.

INAL so I do hope that user will weigh in on all of this. I have been to three of his seminars and advise anyone who carries to do the same. Perhaps I should go again as well.
 

SouthernBoy

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Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law...........AGAINST. My thoughts are that you may not be in the perfect state of mind to comment on what happend. After all you were just forced to kill someone. Unless you are chuck norris I can imagine that this would bother you. Its better to be safe than sorry. Talking to the police in most (some would say in all) situations talking to the police will cause you more harm than good.

Yes, by all means keep your mouth closed and wait for your attorney to arrive. I would bet more good people have been convicted because they failed to adhere to this simple truth. But in such extreme situations as these, it is natural to want to talk... to explain your actions. This is probably more than likely to convince yourself that your use of deadly force was justified than to explain to others what you did and why.
 

Grapeshot

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Its retarded of course. Napoleonic code on my land....I have told my local cops this and they said "what's that?" .. I told them, if you don't know then you do not want to find out the hard way.

I would work to change that stupid law.

Now if kids are getting their frisbee that flew onto my land then I let them get it of course. Napoleon liked to play frisbee.

Recommend if you shoot someone in your house not to talk to the cops ... save it for court; looks like in VA, you'll be having a trial anyway.

Commie law.

All well and good, but Virginia law while perhaps influenced by the Napoleonic code, is based primarily on English Common Law (which is often quoted/cited in court cases here in VA) and precedes Napoleon's reforms by hundreds of years.

One may use force equal to, but not in excess to protect property.

Example: some one is physically carrying my TV w/o my permission out the door. IMO, I may physically prevent or deter them from accomplishing that illegal task - believe that at the least we are talking hands-on here; at the best using less lethal force as the situation warrants. Still looking for a cite though :uhoh:

Might be a different ballgame if the perp takes life or limb threatening action against me. Introduce the disparate capacity for use of force here - I am not the fit 25 year old I once was. ymmv
 
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skidmark

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Fear alone is not enough reason to use deadly force.

The court differentiates between fear (the troubling thought that something may happen) and apprehension (the reasonably held belief that something is going to happen right here, right now).

Violent felonies (usually rape, kidnapping, arson and the like) are considered to have an element of imminent death or serious bodily harm. Someone walking yout TV out the door at 3 AM does not, so you are not justified in using deadly force. That does not mean you cannot attempt to stop the theft in progress or attempt to detain the alleged thief (but be careful that you do not commit kidnapping when doing so) - it just means you have to find other ways to do it.

Having a gun is generally thought of as having the means and ability to defend your life, or the life of an innocent other. It is not there to help you enforce the laws - thaty's what the police are there for. Many people are not happy with that state of affairs, but most of those who are not happy are not willing to end up in prison for their beliefs.

stay safe.
[SIZE=+1]Commonwealth v. Sands, 262 Va. 724, 553 S.E.2d 733 (2001). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]"The principles governing a plea of self-defense are well-established. Self-defense is an affirmative defense to a charge of murder, and in making such a plea, a "defendant implicitly admits the killing was intentional and assumes the burden of introducing evidence of justification or excuse that raises a reasonable doubt in the minds of the jurors." McGhee v. Commonwealth, 219 Va. 560, 562, 248 S.E.2d 808, 810 (1978). The "bare fear" of serious bodily injury, or even death, however well- grounded, will not justify the taking of human life. Stoneman v. Commonwealth, 66 Va. (25 Gratt.) 887, 900 (1874). "There must [also] be some overt act indicative of imminent danger at the time." Vlastaris v. Commonwealth, 164 Va. 647, 652, 178 S.E. 775, 776 (1935). See also Yarborough v. Commonwealth, 217 Va. 971, 975, 234 S.E.2d 286, 290 (1977); Mercer v. Commonwealth, 150 Va. 588, 597, 142 S.E. 369, 371 (1928). In other words, a defendant "must wait till some overt act is done[,] . . . till the danger becomes imminent." Vlastaris, 164 Va. at 652, 178 S.E. at 777. In the context of a self-defense plea, "imminent danger" is defined as "[a]n immediate, real threat to one's safety . . . ." Black's Law Dictionary 399 (7th ed. 1999). "There must be . . . some act menacing present peril . . . [and] [t]he act . . . must be of such a character as to afford a reasonable ground for believing there is a design . . . to do some serious bodily harm, and imminent danger of carrying such design into immediate execution." Byrd v. Commonwealth, 89 Va. 536, 539, 16 S.E. 727, 729 (1893).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]In holding that the trial court erroneously refused to instruct the jury on self-defense, the Court of Appeals construed the term "imminent" to mean something less than "immediate." Sands, 33 Va. App. at 678, 536 S.E.2d at 465 (quoting Sam v. Commonwealth, 13 Va. App. 312, 325, 411 S.E.2d 832, 839 (1991)). Applying its view of that term, the Court of Appeals concluded that, "nder the facts of this case, the fact finder could reasonably have concluded that [the defendant] was without fault in beginning the altercation, reasonably apprehended she was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and, thus, was justified in shooting her husband to prevent him from killing her or further inflicting serious bodily harm upon her." Sands, 33 Va. App. at 679, 536 S.E.2d at 465.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]We agree that the defendant reasonably believed that she was in danger of serious bodily harm or death. Nevertheless, that reasonable belief is not dispositive of the issue before us in this appeal. The question here is whether the circumstances immediately surrounding the killing, specifically, the actions of the defendant's husband at that time, were sufficient to create a reasonable belief of an imminent danger which had to be met. The Court of Appeals did not squarely address this requirement of an overt act.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]Even when viewed in the light most favorable to the defendant, the evidence fails to reveal any overt act by her husband that presented an imminent danger at the time of the shooting. The last episode between the defendant and her husband occurred after the defendant telephoned Shelton. Then, sufficient time elapsed for Shelton to arrive at the couple's home, and for the defendant to view the extent of her injuries while in the bathroom with Shelton, walk from the bathroom to the living room door, turn around and proceed back into the kitchen, retrieve a gun from a cabinet, and walk back into the bedroom where her husband was reclining on the bed, watching television. At that moment, the only reaction by the defendant's husband was his question, "What are you doing[?]" While we do not doubt the defendant's genuine fear for her life or minimize the atrocities inflicted upon her, we cannot point to any evidence of an overt act indicating imminent danger, or indeed any act at all by her husband, when she shot him five times while he reclined on the bed. Nor did the Court of Appeals cite to any such evidence. Thus, the defendant was not entitled to an instruction on self-defense. The requirement of an overt act indicative of imminent danger ensures that the most extreme recourse, the killing of another human being, will be used only in situations of necessity. "The plea of self-defense is a plea of necessity and the necessity must be shown to exist or there must be shown such reasonable apprehension of the immediate danger, by some overt act, as to amount to the creation of necessity." Vlastaris, 164 Va. at 651, 178 S.E. at 776.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]CONCLUSION[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]For these reasons, we will reverse the judgment of the Court of Appeals and enter final judgment reinstating the convictions. Reversed and final judgment."[/SIZE]


 

Tanner

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All well and good, but Virginia law while perhaps influenced by the Napoleonic code, is based primarily on English Common Law (which is often quoted/cited in court cases here in VA) and precedes Napoleon's reforms by hundreds of years.

One may use force equal to, but not in excess to protect property.

Example: some one is physically carrying my TV w/o my permission out the door. IMO, I may physically prevent or deter them from accomplishing that illegal task - believe that at the least we are talking hands-on here; at the best using less lethal force as the situation warrants. Still looking for a cite though :uhoh:

Might be a different ballgame if the perp takes life or limb threatening action against me. Introduce the disparate capacity for use of force here - I am not the fit 25 year old I once was. ymmv

And im not the fit 25 year old I should be!!! :banana::monkey:uhoh:
 

EMNofSeattle

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All well and good, but Virginia law while perhaps influenced by the Napoleonic code, is based primarily on English Common Law (which is often quoted/cited in court cases here in VA) and precedes Napoleon's reforms by hundreds of years.

One may use force equal to, but not in excess to protect property.

Example: some one is physically carrying my TV w/o my permission out the door. IMO, I may physically prevent or deter them from accomplishing that illegal task - believe that at the least we are talking hands-on here; at the best using less lethal force as the situation warrants. Still looking for a cite though :uhoh:

Might be a different ballgame if the perp takes life or limb threatening action against me. Introduce the disparate capacity for use of force here - I am not the fit 25 year old I once was. ymmv

Is McBeth in Louisiana? Becuase Louisiana law is strongly influenced by Napoleonic Code and French legal traditions as it was a French colony prior to being purchased by the US
 

SouthernBoy

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Fear alone is not enough reason to use deadly force.

The court differentiates between fear (the troubling thought that something may happen) and apprehension (the reasonably held belief that something is going to happen right here, right now).

Violent felonies (usually rape, kidnapping, arson and the like) are considered to have an element of imminent death or serious bodily harm. Someone walking yout TV out the door at 3 AM does not, so you are not justified in using deadly force. That does not mean you cannot attempt to stop the theft in progress or attempt to detain the alleged thief (but be careful that you do not commit kidnapping when doing so) - it just means you have to find other ways to do it.

Having a gun is generally thought of as having the means and ability to defend your life, or the life of an innocent other. It is not there to help you enforce the laws - thaty's what the police are there for. Many people are not happy with that state of affairs, but most of those who are not happy are not willing to end up in prison for their beliefs.

stay safe.
[SIZE=+1]Commonwealth v. Sands, 262 Va. 724, 553 S.E.2d 733 (2001). [/SIZE]

The issue of fear, specifically the phrase bare fear, comes up from time to time and I suspect this causes a little confusion in the minds of some people. Of course I am not an attorney, but I am going to venture a guess (don't crucify me for this one) as to what this might mean and how it might be viewed in a court of law.

An elderly woman, alone in her home, happens to see some less-than-desirable malcontents snooping around her next door neighbor's apartment. They are, in her mind, much too close to here apartment for comfort and she begins to quickly become very frightened. Hyperventilating and having trouble speaking she tries to call 911, but can't manage to relate what is taking place since by this time she is nearly out of her mind with fear. So she grabs her late husband's .38 Special revolver and shoots through her window, mortally wounding one of the perps.

I would call the above bare fear and the resulting use of deadly force not excusable. What was missing in this scenario as far as she was concerned is opportunity, jeopardy, and ability.... on the part of the miscreants. Now if we change this a little and have the perps trying to and successfully entering her apartment, then even though she may be in tremendous fear, she now is faced with a genuine threat so the fear would be founded.

Once again I am not an attorney so certainly welcome and encourage constructive comments and corrections to this theory.
 
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Grapeshot

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Is McBeth in Louisiana? Becuase Louisiana law is strongly influenced by Napoleonic Code and French legal traditions as it was a French colony prior to being purchased by the US

He doesn't say publicly, but this is the VA sub-forum, even if he were where laws are more directly influenced thus, it has no bearing here.
 

EMNofSeattle

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Anything you say can and will be used against you in the court of law...........AGAINST. My thoughts are that you may not be in the perfect state of mind to comment on what happend. After all you were just forced to kill someone. Unless you are chuck norris I can imagine that this would bother you. Its better to be safe than sorry. Talking to the police in most (some would say in all) situations talking to the police will cause you more harm than good.

Not nessecarily. See what the honorable, esteemed Professor Duane never mentioned in his video about never talking to cops, was how an affirmative defense works. see any lawyer who tells you never talk to police under any circumstances whatsoever is setting you up for an alibi defense or some procedural defense. an Affirmative defense means you admit to the elements of the crime you're charged with but you qualify for an exception. IE you gun someone down and are being charged with manslaughter. you have to admit to killing the BG in order to invoke self-defense as your legal defense.

so what does this mean? When you're being investigated and or charged you need to be listed as the "victim complainant". there's only two roles open in this play (to quote Mas Ayoob) you're either a vic or a perp.

So imagine this, you're a police officer, and one slow lazy night you hear on the dispatch all units, shots fired corner of sample avenue and imaginary rd, all units respond so you pull up and are the first officer on scene, you have one individual laying dead on the ground in a puddle of blood and another with a gun, after securing gun guy's weapon you start to ask him questions, and all he says is I WANT MY LAWYER, there's no apparent witnesses, and the man on the ground appears to be unarmed. what exactly will you do? well if I'm the officer, then Mr. I WANT LAWYER well get to go MEET HIS LAWYER, downtown, in cuffs.

On the other hand what if the gun guy says "officer, I am the victim, this man attacked me with a knife, his knife slid across the road into that gutter, and someone working on the roof of that Del Taco might've seen the shooting go down. now you know how serious this is, can we talk tommorow after I've spoken with an attorney?"

now lets run this down, and change your character to that of the LAC. in the first scenario you refused to say anything. by the time you told your lawyer about knife, it was gone, and maybe the HVAC contractor on the roof of the del taco had a stroke and is now in the hospital. that evidence that would've exonerated you is gone. and since the officer had nothing to go on other then your demands for an attorney, the report listed "male subject was uncooperative, he requested counsel at which pointed he was arrested and booked for murder 2" at court there was no evidence backing your claim of self defense and you now have 20 years before your first parole hearing to think about what you did wrong.

Second scenario, the police recovered the knife and talked the HVAC contractor. with a witness and a weapon that was matched to your attacker by fingerprints, the patrol officers and detectives believe your claim of self defense, without the suspicions of the police no charges will be filed and you will be free to seek counseling for the shooting as your only pressing problem.

Obviously nothing is quite that black and white, but the fact is, if you know of exonerating evidence you need to point it out, and you definitely want to say just enough to where you'll be marked as the complainant and the dead guy is a perpetrator. the silence treatment is definitely your right, and it may help you in some cases, but it certainly won't help you if critical defense evidence dissappears because you waited 12 hours until an attorney showed to say anything about it.

However I am not an attorney, so take that for what you will, however at least one attorney I know of recommends the latter course of action.
 
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Tanner

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While your free to feel about it however you want to feel about it I think there is a difference between telling the LEO about evidence that you want them to find and telling them about what happend and or admiting to anything. First of all I would never admit to anyone that I killed someone. If the use of lethal force was warrented then I would argue that no crime was commited by me. We have the right to remain silent but most of us dont have the ability. Your refusal to speek to the responding officers does not mean you will not cooperate with the investigation. What is the LEO goint to say? I think he should be charged with murder because he wouldent answer my questions? All they can do is state the facts. " I arrived on the scene and he had a gun. the other guy was dead." Based off of what I have learned here I would want it to be known that I did not shoot him I dident kill him. I legaly stoped him from hurting me. Ill let the lawyer articulate how everything went down.
 

Grapeshot

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While your free to feel about it however you want to feel about it I think there is a difference between telling the LEO about evidence that you want them to find and telling them about what happend and or admiting to anything. First of all I would never admit to anyone that I killed someone. If the use of lethal force was warrented then I would argue that no crime was commited by me. We have the right to remain silent but most of us dont have the ability. Your refusal to speek to the responding officers does not mean you will not cooperate with the investigation. What is the LEO goint to say? I think he should be charged with murder because he wouldent answer my questions? All they can do is state the facts. " I arrived on the scene and he had a gun. the other guy was dead." Based off of what I have learned here I would want it to be known that I did not shoot him I dident kill him. I legaly stoped him from hurting me. Ill let the lawyer articulate how everything went down.

Intent: shoot to stop as required, when circumstances warrant it.

If someone dies as a result of that action, it is murder.

There are only two defenses for murder: excusable and justifiable. They will both ultimately require you to state, "Yep, I did it but here is why............"

Oh and your life will never be the same, but.............you will be alive. That makes it a no choice option or at the least a choice that was initiated by your assailant.
 

Tanner

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Intent: shoot to stop as required, when circumstances warrant it.

If someone dies as a result of that action, it is murder.

There are only two defenses for murder: excusable and justifiable. They will both ultimately require you to state, "Yep, I did it but here is why............"

Oh and your life will never be the same, but.............you will be alive. That makes it a no choice option or at the least a choice that was initiated by your assailant.

Would it matter if you told a cop this or you lawyer? In this situation what would you be willing to say to the police? Based off the stories you told me last saturday I would guess you would say as little as possible.....
 

skidmark

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User, to crudely and inadequately paraphrase him, has said that his ideal client will stand there and proudly say "I shot him. I intended to shoot him and I did. He was <doing x> that made me believe that I was about to be killed or seriously injured, so I shot him. It stopped him from <doing x> so I stopped shooting him."

The point is that the shooter had a reasonably arrived at belief that what the other person was doing would result in deatyh or serious bodily injury right there, right then, and that the use of deadly force was the most effective and efficient way of stopping that from happening. What the person was faced with, if explained to another person (the members of the jury) would make them believe that if they had been there in those circumstances they too would have felt that death or serious bodily injury was imminent* and that using deasdly force was the most effective and efficient way of preventing that from happening to them.

One of the key elements is "imminent" - basically it is going to happen right now. Not something that could happen if a, and/or b, and/or c take place. Not something that, out of a multitude of possibilities, might be the one that takes place. If you can convince "a reasonable person" (a legal figment if ever there was one) that death or serious bodily injury was in fact going to happen unless you used deadly force, and that no action or force less than that, would stop you from becoming dead or being seriously injured, then you have the affirmative defense of excusable murder. But if you waver even the least little bit and say something along the line of "I didn't mean to kill him" or "I only wanted to scare him" then you are probably going to be the guest of honor at a game of guessing if the verdict will be first or second degree murder.

It is not just that the per has the means, the motive and the opportunity to kill or seriously injure you. It must be that they are actually doing something right at the moment that will kill or seriously injure you unless you stop them and that there is no other way of stopping them.

That makes carrying a handgun for self defense a whole lot of effort that may never give you a return for the energy expended. It's like wearing a parachute but not being allowed to jump out of the plane and use it until the plane is going down and there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. Folks wearing parachutes generally have the luxury of being able to decide to bail out before the situation is that bad. Gun-toters do not.

stay safe.
 

Grapeshot

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Intent: shoot to stop as required, when circumstances warrant it.

If someone dies as a result of that action, it is murder.

There are only two defenses for murder: excusable and justifiable. They will both ultimately require you to state, "Yep, I did it but here is why............"

Oh and your life will never be the same, but.............you will be alive. That makes it a no choice option or at the least a choice that was initiated by your assailant.

Would it matter if you told a cop this or you lawyer? In this situation what would you be willing to say to the police? Based off the stories you told me last saturday I would guess you would say as little as possible.....

As little as possible, yes!

Circumstances will vary. I was attacked, forced to defend myself, there is the evidence, there are the witnesses. I will make a statement through my attorney as soon as reasonably possible.

Hopefully immediately after calling 911, you called the attorney of choice and/or got a trusted friend involved in that process.

Expect that your gun with be held as evidence, that you will be cuffed and that there may be attempts to interrogate you in spite of your request to see your attorney first - that is the time to shut up and stand pat. If you discuss anything else, you may well be waiving your right to remain silent - don't forget ANYTHING you say may be used against you. What you need is solid excusable or justifiable grounds at the direction of your lawyer. Do NOT plead your case on the street.
 

MKEgal

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The answer to the original question of "can I shoot to stop someone going out the door with my TV?" is obviously "no".
If, upon being confronted, he decides to come toward you, I'd say that's showing intent to harm you (otherwise he'd just run) & would warrant a hefty response.

Tanner said:
Your refusal to speak to the responding officers does not mean you will not cooperate with the investigation.
But that's exactly how they'll paint it.
Remember: whatever you say can & will be used against you.

"He attacked me, I thought he was going to kill me; there's the evidence (weapon, etc.), there are witnesses; I'd like to go to the hospital to make sure I'm not hurt; I'm very upset & I want my lawyer present before I answer questions. Her name is ________."
Lather, rinse, repeat.

All they can do is state the facts. "I arrived on the scene and he had a gun. The other guy was dead."
No, that's not all they can do.
Some officers are crooked enough that they will twist what you say, deliberately mislead readers (of their reports), and yes, even flat-out LIE, both writing their reports & later in court.

Maybe they're supposed to only report the facts, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't always happen that way.
And even when reports are internally contradictory, nobody will question them.
:mad:
 

Tanner

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No, that's not all they can do.
Some officers are crooked enough that they will twist what you say, deliberately mislead readers (of their reports), and yes, even flat-out LIE, both writing their reports & later in court.

Maybe they're supposed to only report the facts, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't always happen that way.
And even when reports are internally contradictory, nobody will question them.
:mad:

This sounds like a perfect reason to keep your mouth shut. If you acctually say nothing it is hard for them to twist your words. They can paint my refusing to speak to them how ever they want. We have the right to remain silent. It seems cut and dry to me. How would not talking to the cops on the street be the reason for a conviction. Not to mention even if you dont have a corrupt cop it is still possible that even a good cop can missquote you and that brings on its own set of issues. Personally I will stay quite, however im not saying that people who choose to speak are doing anything wrong. If you want to talk then talk.
 

peter nap

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The answer to the original question of "can I shoot to stop someone going out the door with my TV?" is obviously "no".
If, upon being confronted, he decides to come toward you, I'd say that's showing intent to harm you (otherwise he'd just run) & would warrant a hefty response.


But that's exactly how they'll paint it.
Remember: whatever you say can & will be used against you.

"He attacked me, I thought he was going to kill me; there's the evidence (weapon, etc.), there are witnesses; I'd like to go to the hospital to make sure I'm not hurt; I'm very upset & I want my lawyer present before I answer questions. Her name is ________."
Lather, rinse, repeat.


No, that's not all they can do.
Some officers are crooked enough that they will twist what you say, deliberately mislead readers (of their reports), and yes, even flat-out LIE, both writing their reports & later in court.

Maybe they're supposed to only report the facts, but I can tell you from experience that it doesn't always happen that way.
And even when reports are internally contradictory, nobody will question them.
:mad:

The voice of experience!
Worst of all, once those erroneous facts go in the record, they follow you even though you were exonerated.

BTW MKE....Congratulations on a hard fought win!!!!!
 
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