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Thread: Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio

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    Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio (Audio Added)

    In my little burgh of Minerva Ohio I was quite the attention getter last night. I have been open carrying for about 6 weeks without incident. Last night while walking down the street minding my own business I was flashed and eventually confronted with 3 cruisers and 4 officers (I think the entire on duty force in this little town) I was able to record part of the confrontation (with them being aware of it) . For the most part aside from not being aware of what the law actually states 3 of them where quite cordial. One officer however was quite aggressive. Raising his voice on multiple occasions and misquoting state law on multiple occasions. They where called by a citizen who witnessed me walking down the street and responded.

    Upon the initial encounter the officer got out of the vehicle and asked me what was on my belt. I told them it was my personal handgun. He told me to put my hands where he could see them. which I did. He then approached me and said he was going to remove my firearm I then told him "I do not submit to search or seizure of my personal property" he disregarded this and took the gun from it's retention holster. They asked me for my ID to which I replied am I suspected of committing a crime? The first officer said "For carrying that gun
    " To which I responded that carrying a gun was not illegal in the state of Ohio. He then asked if I had a CCW I told him that I was open carrying and preferred not to comment. They continued to demand my license to which I explained they could not demand my ID without reasonable suspicion. To which they said a complaint of a man with a gun was reasonable suspicion. I explain it was not they of course said I was incorrect. Eventually I asked if I could record the rest of the conversation and I would then show them my ID.

    Conversation with the officers revealed that they had no idea that open carry was legal and I was then told that not alerting them of my CCW upon the initial stop was a crime and I could be arrested for it. I informed them that I was only required by law to inform them if I had been carrying a concealed firearm. Mind you most of the negative experience was from one officer in particular and the others seemed somewhat convinced from my argument that I may be within my rights. Eventually they ran my ID,my guns serial #, and my CCW. Returned it all to me and I was free to go. I was detained approx 45 minutes.

    My question is are:

    Where would I find a true legal definition of when they can DEMAND my ID or information that would ID me ie name,birth-date etc... (Reasonable suspicion)

    When can they seize my firearm?

    My concern was now my name is on record at the MPD for not breaking any laws. Is spoke with the supervisor on duty this morning he was about as reasonable as the one officer was last night. I am drafting a letter for the City Administrator , Chief of police, and City Law Director.

    I am uploading the videos now. Here are the URL's YouTube tells me they will be available at.

    Part 1 is here
    http://youtu.be/3GgRRistMP0

    Part 2 is here
    http://youtu.be/1E-ny5mm0Sg

    Keep in mind I was nervous during this encounter as I was in a gestapo situation, unarmed against my will, and my first such situation.
    Last edited by Humanshield; 09-02-2012 at 10:22 AM. Reason: Added Audio links

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    1) Don't ask them to record the conversation, just record it. Per Ohio law, only one member of the party needs to be aware that the conversation is being recorded, and that one member of the party is you. Don't ask, just do.

    2) Don't give them your ID without them having RAS. There is no point. Also don't bargain with them (as stated above, you don't need to request permission or notify them that you are going to record the conversation). Ask to speak to their supervisor, and continue up the chain until someone who knows the laws shows up.

    3) They can't seize your weapon unless they have RAS. They illegally took your weapon from you, I would file a complaint with the department and the city and continue to fight this until you get the desired results.

    My concern was now my name is on record at the MPD for not breaking any laws. Is spoke with the supervisor on duty this morning he was about as reasonable as the one officer was last night. I am drafting a letter for the City Administrator , Chief of police, and City Law Director.
    This is exactly why you don't provide ID when you've not broken any laws.

    Good luck, and hopefully if anything I stated is wrong, someone else will correct me.


    *Edit* Can you share with us the part of the conversation you got recorded?

    *Double Edit* I sent an e-mail to their police chief, her e-mail is chief@minervapark.org if you'd like to do the same. Remember to be respectful.
    Last edited by Hareuhal; 09-01-2012 at 10:55 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate color of law's Avatar
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    Also what town/city did this happen in?

    This has to be dealt with. There are too many police dept. not getting any training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by color of law View Post
    Also what town/city did this happen in?

    This has to be dealt with. There are too many police dept. not getting any training.
    You missed the title, eh? :P

    Minerva, Ohio.

    I sent their chief an e-mail, you can also e-mail her at chief@minervapark.org if you're interested. Hopefully enough people will do so that she takes the time to teach her officers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    1) Don't ask them to record the conversation, just record it. Per Ohio law, only one member of the party needs to be aware that the conversation is being recorded, and that one member of the party is you. Don't ask, just do.
    I understand this, I did not want to reach into my pocket for my phone without permission.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    2) Don't give them your ID without them having RAS. There is no point. Also don't bargain with them (as stated above, you don't need to request permission or notify them that you are going to record the conversation). Ask to speak to their supervisor, and continue up the chain until someone who knows the laws shows up.
    RAS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    3) They can't seize your weapon unless they have RAS. They illegally took your weapon from you, I would file a complaint with the department and the city and continue to fight this until you get the desired results.
    I plan on notifying the chief/city administrator/Law director.



    I will get a copy of what I got recorded uploaded sometime. So the officer approached me and told me he was taking my gun. I certainly was not going to fight with him over it. Is there someplace I can cite when they can or cannot seize it? OR when they can or cannot demand my ID for that matter?

    Also, it is Minerva, Minerva Park is another city in the state. We are on state route 30 just east of Canton. zip 44657.
    Last edited by Humanshield; 09-01-2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanshield View Post
    I understand this, I did not want to reach into my pocket for my phone without permission.
    (3) If the person is stopped for a law enforcement purpose, if the person is carrying a concealed handgun, and if the person is approached by any law enforcement officer while stopped, knowingly remove or attempt to remove the loaded handgun from the holster, pocket, or other place in which the person is carrying it, knowingly grasp or hold the loaded handgun, or knowingly have contact with the loaded handgun by touching it with the personís hands or fingers at any time after the law enforcement officer begins approaching and before the law enforcement officer leaves, unless the person removes, attempts to remove, grasps, holds, or has contact with the loaded handgun pursuant to and in accordance with directions given by the law enforcement officer;

    Your pocket is not your weapon.


    RAS?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_suspicion.

    As in, they cannot require ID from you unless they suspect you of a crime...

    "(A) No person who is in a public place shall refuse to disclose the personís name, address, or date of birth, when requested by a law enforcement officer who reasonably suspects either of the following:

    (1) The person is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a criminal offense.

    (2) The person witnessed any of the following:

    (a) An offense of violence that would constitute a felony under the laws of this state;

    (b) A felony offense that causes or results in, or creates a substantial risk of, serious physical harm to another person or to property;

    (c) Any attempt or conspiracy to commit, or complicity in committing, any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section;

    (d) Any conduct reasonably indicating that any offense identified in division (A)(2)(a) or (b) of this section or any attempt, conspiracy, or complicity described in division (A)(2)(c) of this section has been, is being, or is about to be committed.

    (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of failure to disclose oneís personal information, a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

    (C) Nothing in this section requires a person to answer any questions beyond that personís name, address, or date of birth. Nothing in this section authorizes a law enforcement officer to arrest a person for not providing any information beyond that personís name, address, or date of birth or for refusing to describe the offense observed.

    (D) It is not a violation of this section to refuse to answer a question that would reveal a personís age or date of birth if age is an element of the crime that the person is suspected of committing."



    So the officer approached me and told me he was taking my gun. I certainly was not going to fight with him over it. Is there someplace I can cite when they can or cannot seize it? OR when they can or cannot demand my ID for that matter?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_...s_Constitution
    followed by
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_...tution#Consent
    also
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapp_v._Ohio

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    Another argument that was made to me was "How do we know you are not a felon and are legal to carry a firearm." To which I pointed out the car passing by and asked how they know that driver is not drunk or driving under a suspended license. And can you pull him over to check?

    What is the legality of there question?

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    Re: Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio

    They pull that a lot of times. Unless they have reason to suspect it, doesn't matter. They can't just check because they want to.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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    That is what I thought.
    Hareuhal thank you for all of the input. Sorry for all of the questions. This was my first encounter, I was nervous but kept my cool.

    What about the claim that "Someone called in a suspicious person with a gun. We have to investigate and have the right to demand your ID."

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    Re: Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio

    Someone calling on another person for a LEGAL action does not warrant RAS and therefore providing ID is not required.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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    Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio

    I live in canton and I'm down in Minerva a lot so if you want I will be more then willing to do a walk around town with you while open carrying. This needs to be addressed. It's the little towns who are a big problem when it comes to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanshield View Post
    That is what I thought.
    Hareuhal thank you for all of the input. Sorry for all of the questions. This was my first encounter, I was nervous but kept my cool.

    What about the claim that "Someone called in a suspicious person with a gun. We have to investigate and have the right to demand your ID."
    "Suspicious" in what WAY? Openly carrying a gun? Not a crime.

    Regarding the recording, whenever I carry, I start the recorder on my phone going BEFORE I leave the house. Hence no need for starting the recorder if something DOES happen. I use Cop Recorder II for the Android phone which runs in the background and gives no indication that it's running.

    It seems that 1/3 of cops know and obey the law, 1/3 don't know the law, and 1/3 neither know nor care about the law. We need to make it painful for those 2/3 who don't take their duties seriously.
    Last edited by Deanimator; 09-01-2012 at 12:55 PM.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    Someone calling on another person for a LEGAL action does not warrant RAS and therefore providing ID is not required.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2
    This is true, to the best of my knowledge. I have seen in a few cases where LEO won't take no for a answer, to the point of taking your ID out of your hand cuffed, face down on the ground, body.

    Ok, what recourse does one have after that? FreedomFighter 777 filed a lawsuit, supposedly won. Harley's &Gun's, told the Waverly Police Officer, he didn't have to tell him $hit, when it came to offering up ID. He was arrested, pled to a $80 or so fine, after 18 months of fighting, with lawyers, Pro Bono, no word on any further action yet. Most recently a man in Springfield, near Dayton. MWAG call, LEO respond, refusal to offer ID, cited. ORC - 2921.31 Obstructing official business.

    It is the law, it is the truth, but with out cash to burn, just how is anyone going to hold LEO accountable so it doesn't happen again? Its not like putting you in handcuffs and taking your wallet is going to light up a lawyers eyes and see a payday. What damages would you have?

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    Re: Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio

    That is the risk we take to defend out rights. The more we fight it and refuse to give up our clearly stated rights, the less it will happen.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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    Accomplished Advocate BB62's Avatar
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    RAS - Reasonable Articulable Suspicion, that you have, are, or are about to commit a crime.

    IOW, the conditions for a Terry stop. (Terry v. Ohio)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garystarcher View Post
    I live in canton and I'm down in Minerva a lot so if you want I will be more then willing to do a walk around town with you while open carrying. This needs to be addressed. It's the little towns who are a big problem when it comes to this.
    EXCELLENT!!

    We need more grassroots activity in Northern and Northeastern Ohio.

    Contact MyWifeSaidYes if you like - he lives up that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    EXCELLENT!!

    We need more grassroots activity in Northern and Northeastern Ohio.

    Contact MyWifeSaidYes if you like - he lives up that way.
    yeah, I'm in the Cleveland area and have been waiting for people to wanna get together..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanshield View Post
    Another argument that was made to me was "How do we know you are not a felon and are legal to carry a firearm." To which I pointed out the car passing by and asked how they know that driver is not drunk or driving under a suspended license. And can you pull him over to check?

    What is the legality of there question?
    They can ASK you anything they want. Whether you are LEGALLY required to answer it is another matter.

    Your example was on point. An officer needs to have RAS before he can stop/detain you.

    Remember, you might not "win" at the scene, but over time your calm demeanor and determined approach WILL have an effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    They can ASK you anything they want. Whether you are LEGALLY required to answer it is another matter.

    Your example was on point. An officer needs to have RAS before he can stop/detain you.

    Remember, you might not "win" at the scene, but over time your calm demeanor and determined approach WILL have an effect.
    Combined with an audio recording, it'll have a much BIGGER effect.

    Of course you don't want to tell them you HAVE a recording until AFTER you've FOIAed ALL records of the interaction so that they don't have the opportunity to "correct" the documentation.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Combined with an audio recording, it'll have a much BIGGER effect...
    Absolutely, I consider that a given.

    Bottom line - if one is going to OC, you ought to have your recorder running.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    Of course you don't want to tell them you HAVE a recording until AFTER you've FOIAed ALL records of the interaction so that they don't have the opportunity to "correct" the documentation.
    Yep.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-01-2012 at 01:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Absolutely, I consider that a given.

    Bottom line - if one is going to OC, you ought to have your recorder running.



    Yep.
    I don't even open carry and I still have the recorder running whenever I'm armed and in public.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    So I just dumped the video from my phone in order to listen to the audio. I placed the phone in my pocket so I was concerned the audio would be to muffled but I was pleasantly surprised to hear how clear it was. I am working on ripping the audio now. (The camera is HD so the total 23 minutes was like 1.7 GB. )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanshield View Post
    So I just dumped the video from my phone in order to listen to the audio. I placed the phone in my pocket so I was concerned the audio would be to muffled but I was pleasantly surprised to hear how clear it was. I am working on ripping the audio now. (The camera is HD so the total 23 minutes was like 1.7 GB. )
    I would highly recommend purchasing an actual voice recorder. The quality is unbelievable and you don't have to worry about it being unreliable, as phones can be. Phones are not meant to record various noises while still retaining their clarity, voice recorders are. Anytime you go out and about, turn it to record, stick it in your pocket and go about your day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Remember, you might not "win" at the scene, but over time your calm demeanor and determined approach WILL have an effect.
    Clarification:

    I'm not saying that one will win over the officer(s) at the scene, or the chief of police.

    What I am saying is that the recording of one's calm, informed demeanor and determined approach will play MUCH, MUCH better if and when one plays it for the members of city council, in a courtroom, or when its posted to the internet.

    Most of an individual's "audience" is NOT at the scene of an incident.

    How an individual conducts himself will go a long way toward others perception of him; a raving lunatic, trouble-maker, etc. or a knowledgeable citizen greatly irritated by the ignorance, dismissiveness or intimidating manner of the officers involved.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-02-2012 at 12:34 AM.

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    I'd be willing to do a OC in Minerva. I searched out a map on the town and couldn't find any parks. Perhaps a local could contact a coffee shop or restaurant that wouldn't mind having us in there for lunch, then we could do a walk around the town.. If some one comes up with a place to eat, start a new thread: Minerva Meet and Greet.

    I would also post this in Open Carry Advocates. We're due for a walk.

    I'll take a couple of bucks in my pants pockets, leave my wallet in the car. Sterile carry....
    Last edited by JSlack7851; 09-02-2012 at 01:12 AM.

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