Deanimator
Regular Member
I don't even open carry and I still have the recorder running whenever I'm armed and in public.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
Open Carry encounter in Minerva, Ohio
- Thread starter Humanshield
- Start date
Humanshield
Regular Member
So I just dumped the video from my phone in order to listen to the audio. I placed the phone in my pocket so I was concerned the audio would be to muffled but I was pleasantly surprised to hear how clear it was. I am working on ripping the audio now. (The camera is HD so the total 23 minutes was like 1.7 GB. )
I would highly recommend purchasing an actual voice recorder. The quality is unbelievable and you don't have to worry about it being unreliable, as phones can be. Phones are not meant to record various noises while still retaining their clarity, voice recorders are. Anytime you go out and about, turn it to record, stick it in your pocket and go about your day.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
Clarification:
I'm not saying that one will win over the officer(s) at the scene, or the chief of police.
What I am saying is that the recording of one's calm, informed demeanor and determined approach will play MUCH, MUCH better if and when one plays it for the members of city council, in a courtroom, or when its posted to the internet.
Most of an individual's "audience" is NOT at the scene of an incident.
How an individual conducts himself will go a long way toward others perception of him; a raving lunatic, trouble-maker, etc. or a knowledgeable citizen greatly irritated by the ignorance, dismissiveness or intimidating manner of the officers involved.
Last edited:
JSlack7851
Regular Member
I'd be willing to do a OC in Minerva. I searched out a map on the town and couldn't find any parks. Perhaps a local could contact a coffee shop or restaurant that wouldn't mind having us in there for lunch, then we could do a walk around the town.. If some one comes up with a place to eat, start a new thread: Minerva Meet and Greet.
I would also post this in Open Carry Advocates. We're due for a walk.
I'll take a couple of bucks in my pants pockets, leave my wallet in the car. Sterile carry....
I would also post this in Open Carry Advocates. We're due for a walk.
I'll take a couple of bucks in my pants pockets, leave my wallet in the car. Sterile carry....
Last edited:
MyWifeSaidYes
Regular Member
Had this been Minerva Park, Ohio (Franklin Co.) instead of Minerva, Ohio (Stark Co.), I would be camping out on their doorstep.
I do agree with having a recorder running at all times when you leave the house (armed or not). It's personal preference on what device you use.
As mentioned earlier, it's legal to record so just do it. Announcing that you are recording may cause a LEO to watch his words so he won't get in trouble. I'm not advocating TRYING to get them in trouble, but without an honest expression of their feelings to share with their chief, the recording doesn't do much.
They can stop you. I'm fine with that.
They can ask you what you are doing. Minding my own business?
They can ask you for ID. Fine, but you don't have to provide any without RAS.
Open carrying is legal almost everywhere in Ohio. Legal activity = NO RAS!
You don't have to notify if open carrying (unless in or on a motor vehicle).
If you have a mix of reasonable LEO's and a-holes, you should stand your ground if you are in the right. The reasonable ones will check out your story. They have ways of checking out the ORC. You may want to keep a list of pertinent codes in your wallet or purse to share with these LEO's.
Don't do this IF you only have a-hole LEO's present.
Do not argue with an a-hole LEO. Make sure your recorder is going, state your belief about any issue they are wrong about, maybe even ask them to check with a legal officer or a prosecutor, then shut up.
Remember: When it comes to arguing, the individual with a gun and a truth are usually trumped by the individual with a gun, a badge and no clue.
I do agree with having a recorder running at all times when you leave the house (armed or not). It's personal preference on what device you use.
As mentioned earlier, it's legal to record so just do it. Announcing that you are recording may cause a LEO to watch his words so he won't get in trouble. I'm not advocating TRYING to get them in trouble, but without an honest expression of their feelings to share with their chief, the recording doesn't do much.
They can stop you. I'm fine with that.
They can ask you what you are doing. Minding my own business?
They can ask you for ID. Fine, but you don't have to provide any without RAS.
Open carrying is legal almost everywhere in Ohio. Legal activity = NO RAS!
You don't have to notify if open carrying (unless in or on a motor vehicle).
If you have a mix of reasonable LEO's and a-holes, you should stand your ground if you are in the right. The reasonable ones will check out your story. They have ways of checking out the ORC. You may want to keep a list of pertinent codes in your wallet or purse to share with these LEO's.
Don't do this IF you only have a-hole LEO's present.
Do not argue with an a-hole LEO. Make sure your recorder is going, state your belief about any issue they are wrong about, maybe even ask them to check with a legal officer or a prosecutor, then shut up.
Remember: When it comes to arguing, the individual with a gun and a truth are usually trumped by the individual with a gun, a badge and no clue.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
With RAS, of course.
And without RAS, you are under no obligation to answer.
Humanshield
Regular Member
There are 4 parks in Minerva, all within walking distance one with a very nice walking park.
Humanshield
Regular Member
This is why I eventually submitted my ID. With nobody honest involved but myself I would have had no recourse... Also why I insisted on recording the incident if I gave them my ID.
fjpro2a
Regular Member
Wrong E-Mail Address, I think
As you suggested, I emailed chief@minervapark.org, but I believe this is the wrong email address. Apparently, there is a Minerva Park and a Minerva. Has anyone else checked up on this?
You missed the title, eh?
Minerva, Ohio.
I sent their chief an e-mail, you can also e-mail her at chief@minervapark.org if you're interested. Hopefully enough people will do so that she takes the time to teach her officers.
As you suggested, I emailed chief@minervapark.org, but I believe this is the wrong email address. Apparently, there is a Minerva Park and a Minerva. Has anyone else checked up on this?
You know what, I think you're right. I can't believe I missed that myself...
The correct website is http://ci.minerva.oh.us/default.php
Unfortunately, there is no e-mail for the Chief, but his phone number is 330-868-4177
Last edited:
Humanshield
Regular Member
Audio clips added to original post.
BB62
Accomplished Advocate
Have all your questions been answered to your satisfaction?
What (if anything) do you want to accomplish from this point forward?
What (if anything) are you going to do differently next time?
Are you going to file a records request?
Here is something for your consideration (item #3)
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/police/linkservid/18BFD387-B6DA-077C-9CA3C47BC23AB4F0/showMeta/0/
Last edited:
Email address
Here's an email address for y'all... rfirst@ci.minerva.oh.us
Minerva Police Department
Chief Robert L. First
209 N. Market Street
Minerva, OH 44657
Source: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Enforcement/Law-enforcement-directory/Chiefs
That might be a site people want to bookmark for future incidents.
Here's an email address for y'all... rfirst@ci.minerva.oh.us
Minerva Police Department
Chief Robert L. First
209 N. Market Street
Minerva, OH 44657
Source: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Enforcement/Law-enforcement-directory/Chiefs
That might be a site people want to bookmark for future incidents.
JSlack7851
Regular Member
Source: http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/Enforcement/Law-enforcement-directory/Chiefs
That might be a site people want to bookmark for future incidents.
Good site to have, Bookmarked! Thanks.
No problem, I'm glad to help even in small ways.
I should've given this link, http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/LawEnforcementDirectory, which is the Law Enforcement Directory. It's searchable and has both Chiefs and Sheriffs.
In the links on the lower right of that page, there are other goodies such as the Ohio Prosecuting Attorneys Association directory, http://www.ohiopa.org/prosinfo.htm. There are so many useful things on the Ohio AG site, lol.
If I can't find an official's email on their specific government pages, I always google them with "title name location email" and it usually doesn't fail me. They almost always belong to some sort of professional organization which likes to post emails.
@Humanshield: You did a fine job. Nervousness is to be expected for most of us as they seem to have all of the power and no immediate leash in the field. It can go any way an officer wants to push it (Re: Harless) even to the death or serious injury of the citizen. It is disquieting to the LAC at the mercy of a badge with a bully in an encounter.
I should've given this link, http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/LawEnforcementDirectory, which is the Law Enforcement Directory. It's searchable and has both Chiefs and Sheriffs.
In the links on the lower right of that page, there are other goodies such as the Ohio Prosecuting Attorneys Association directory, http://www.ohiopa.org/prosinfo.htm. There are so many useful things on the Ohio AG site, lol.
If I can't find an official's email on their specific government pages, I always google them with "title name location email" and it usually doesn't fail me. They almost always belong to some sort of professional organization which likes to post emails.
@Humanshield: You did a fine job. Nervousness is to be expected for most of us as they seem to have all of the power and no immediate leash in the field. It can go any way an officer wants to push it (Re: Harless) even to the death or serious injury of the citizen. It is disquieting to the LAC at the mercy of a badge with a bully in an encounter.
Chris 45LC
Regular Member
For CCW, an officer does have the right to seize a firearm during a stop, if the officer feels the need to for safety. This might also be the case when stopped and questioned by an officer while open carrying. However, you were not breaking any law. Therefore, I don't see how an Officer can legally confiscate or seize an item from a person not breaking a law or without RAS. There is probably a specific law in regard to this.
Every LEO in Ohio should know the laws concerning open carry. There is no excuse for this. Perhaps it would be good to contact Mike Dewine http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/home.aspx/?from=logo and explain this problem to him and even provide the link for this thread. Also contacting the Ohio FOP http://fopohio.org/ and every police and sheriff department in the state and demand that officers be trained to know the laws in regard to open carry. Going for a walk in a park is great exercise but it will not get all of Ohio police officers informed of the laws of open carry...it takes a little more than that.
Every LEO in Ohio should know the laws concerning open carry. There is no excuse for this. Perhaps it would be good to contact Mike Dewine http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/home.aspx/?from=logo and explain this problem to him and even provide the link for this thread. Also contacting the Ohio FOP http://fopohio.org/ and every police and sheriff department in the state and demand that officers be trained to know the laws in regard to open carry. Going for a walk in a park is great exercise but it will not get all of Ohio police officers informed of the laws of open carry...it takes a little more than that.
The specific law you're referring to is the Fourth Amendment.
MKEgal
Regular Member
See below, about the federal civil rights laws. One of those is a felony for the officers involved, the others have you ending up with money from the officers, the department, the city.JSlack7851 said:
Merely having a pistol is not grounds for suspicion of any sort of crime. [See quotes below.]
Having it in hand, yes. Waving it at people, yes.
Having someone lie & saying you did one of those, maybe.
But "guy with a pistol walking down the street" /= MWAG
The calltakers & dispatchers need to be trained to ask better questions. The first of those is perfectly legal & the caller should be told not to waste police resources & tie up emergency lines.
*****
Have a look at a couple of my blog pages.
federal civil rights laws for 2A advocates Has links to the federal Code.
42USC1983 Civil action for deprivation of rights
42USC1985 Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights
18USC241 Conspiracy against rights
The first 2 are civil remedies - you sue the officers, the department, the city.
The last is a felony, which a federal prosecutor would have to handle.
And here's a blog post with lots of useful legal references.
"Mr. St. John’s lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
St. John v. McColley (here's an article which has the PDF of the decision)
The Third Circuit found that an individual’s lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place did not justify a search or seizure.
United States v. Ubiles (3rd Cir. 2000)
The Tenth Circuit found that an investigatory detention initiated by an officer after he discovered that the defendant lawfully possessed a loaded firearm lacked sufficient basis because the firearm alone did not create a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
United States v. King (10th Cir. 1993)
"The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
Miller v. U.S., 230 F 2d 486. 489
"The mere presence of firearms does not create exigent circumstances."
WI v. Kiekhefer (Ct. App. 1997)
"Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
Delaware v. Prouse (1979).
[This is why officers now have to make up something about your taillight being out - they can't stop your car just to check your license.]
“Selective prosecution when referring to the decision to prosecute in retaliation for the exercise of a constitutional right gives rise to an actionable right under the constitution."
County of Kenosha [WI] v. C. & S. Management, Inc. (1999).
"Resemblance to a “drug courier profile” was an insufficient basis for seizure."
Reid v. Georgia (1980).
Last edited:
JSlack7851
Regular Member
Has any one contacted the Chief about these untrained outlaws yet? I see no volunteers for a OC walk. I'm kinda curious what the Chief has to say about these guys demanding ID. and stopping this gentleman in the first place.