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Thread: Arrested last night

  1. #126
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    I apologize, apparently there was no cursing mentioned. He is what was written about the incident:

    "Above was upset with this and was speaking to Lt. White, U/100. Above squared off against him and pointed his finger in Lt. White's face placing Lt. White in reasonable apprehension of imminent physical injury. Above was then told to put his hands on the car. He continued to be argumentative and irate. Above was placed in handcuffs for safety. Above was told that he was detained and continued to argue in public in a loud manner that he was arrested. Above was creating public alarm which served no legitimate purpose."

    To me, it seems as though DC took place. If any actions by the police were illegal or unjustified, they should be dealt with appropriately. As I understand it, one must comply with an LEO. It doesn't seem to be very good practice to become belligerent and be non-compliant in order prove a point or assert your rights. If an officer is unreasonable or unjustified with their actions--comply, hold them accountable, and make them pay dearly.

  2. #127
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    The Supreme Court of the United States has thrown out a conviction for disorderly conduct on similar facts:



    "Officer Johnson testified [...] that he arrested petitioner for 'being loud and boisterous,' and '[h]e was annoying me.' The municipal judge found that petitioner was 'hostile' to the officer. [...] The court proceeded to find Mr. Norwell 'guilty of disorderly conduct with the intent to annoy' and fined him $10 and costs 'for being so noisy.'

    Upon this record, we are convinced that petitioner was arrested and convicted merely because he verbally and negatively protested Officer Johnson's treatment of him. Surely, one is not to be punished for nonprovocatively voicing his objection to what he obviously felt was a highly questionable detention by a police officer. [...]

    The judgment is reversed."

    Norwell v. Cincinnati, 414 U.S. 14, 16 (1973).

  3. #128
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    Re: Arrested last night

    I think it is DC because the belligerence was coupled with noncompliance.

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  4. #129
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    As I understand it, one must comply with an LEO.
    As I understand it one must comply only with a lawful command.

    I would be belligerent and non compliant if someone was trampling my rights too.

    BTW, CC in Self Preservations post means "CharleyCherokee"

    Charley, I would see how long you can go without paying it. The only Judges I have seen will give you a continuation easily. I don't believe they did you right, so if it was me, I would make them wait for that money. Wait until your time is almost up and then just send the Judge a letter asking. If it doesn't work, you'll only have to pay the fine.

    KYGlockster, I just don't see how it would be worth it to appeal the case. A $50 fine isn't much compared to the price of a lawyer. But if he is interested in fighting it, I'll see what I can do to help.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  5. #130
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I wasn't being disorderly. I WAS compliant and did everything asked of me. Ever see a video of a few cops dog piling a subject and telling them to stop resisting? You know the one where the guy couldn't even possibly resist because he's being pulled at from so many different directions? I've seen a video of a cop telling an unconscious man to stop resisting. They didn't charge me with resisting. The cop testified that I at no time cursed them. The report specifically said that my arguing with them was "unreasonable" noise. If you in fact think I was being disorderly then all I have to say is I hope you're never put in a similar situation.
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  6. #131
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    As I understand it one must comply only with a lawful command.

    I would be belligerent and non compliant if someone was trampling my rights too.

    BTW, CC in Self Preservations post means "CharleyCherokee"

    Charley, I would see how long you can go without paying it. The only Judges I have seen will give you a continuation easily. I don't believe they did you right, so if it was me, I would make them wait for that money. Wait until your time is almost up and then just send the Judge a letter asking. If it doesn't work, you'll only have to pay the fine.

    KYGlockster, I just don't see how it would be worth it to appeal the case. A $50 fine isn't much compared to the price of a lawyer. But if he is interested in fighting it, I'll see what I can do to help.
    Yeah, I should have specified that. Sorry for any confusion.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I wasn't being disorderly. I WAS compliant and did everything asked of me. Ever see a video of a few cops dog piling a subject and telling them to stop resisting? You know the one where the guy couldn't even possibly resist because he's being pulled at from so many different directions? I've seen a video of a cop telling an unconscious man to stop resisting. They didn't charge me with resisting. The cop testified that I at no time cursed them. The report specifically said that my arguing with them was "unreasonable" noise. If you in fact think I was being disorderly then all I have to say is I hope you're never put in a similar situation.
    My guess is there isn't one in a hundred people here, who have had the misfortune to run into a
    leo like this one. It is a shame that the decent officers won't step forward and help get these bully
    type officers removed. The police have a difficult job to do, and this type of cancer makes it more
    difficult for public to trust any leo.

    In my humble opinion.

  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    As I understand it one must comply only with a lawful command.

    I would be belligerent and non compliant if someone was trampling my rights too.

    BTW, CC in Self Preservations post means "CharleyCherokee"

    Charley, I would see how long you can go without paying it. The only Judges I have seen will give you a continuation easily. I don't believe they did you right, so if it was me, I would make them wait for that money. Wait until your time is almost up and then just send the Judge a letter asking. If it doesn't work, you'll only have to pay the fine.

    KYGlockster, I just don't see how it would be worth it to appeal the case. A $50 fine isn't much compared to the price of a lawyer. But if he is interested in fighting it, I'll see what I can do to help.
    Don't fight the Lawrence County government. Their ordinance just affects a small portion of property in Lawrence County, so is it really worth it to fight them over their ordinance? Only a small portion of people will carry there anyways, so it isn't much compared to the headache you will get from doing so.

    See what I did there?

    I guarantee you it is DEFINATELY worth it to Charley to appeal this matter. He was arrested and now has a misdemeanor conviction for exercising his constitutional rights (more than one). If he allows this officer to get by with this, then the officer will continue to deprive people of their rights on a daily basis. This was a MAJOR deprivation in my eyes, and many others I am sure. Had this ENCOUNTER been a legal one, the officer would have noticed his firearm, asked for his DL and sent him on his way. As we know, this is NOT what happened. Everything this officer did was either illegal or unconstitutional, and I could not allow him to get away with it. I get a sense of Charley's personality from this forum, and I can tell that he does NOT want this officer to get away with what he did either.

    When you are fighting for your rights and what is RIGHT, then there can be no price too high. And, Charley now has a criminal record, which is BOGUS!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  9. #134
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    --snipped--

    I guarantee you it is DEFINATELY worth it to Charley to appeal this matter. He was arrested and now has a misdemeanor conviction for exercising his constitutional rights (more than one). If he allows this officer to get by with this, then the officer will continue to deprive people of their rights on a daily basis. This was a MAJOR deprivation in my eyes, and many others I am sure. Had this ENCOUNTER been a legal one, the officer would have noticed his firearm, asked for his DL and sent him on his way. As we know, this is NOT what happened. Everything this officer did was either illegal or unconstitutional, and I could not allow him to get away with it. I get a sense of Charley's personality from this forum, and I can tell that he does NOT want this officer to get away with what he did either.

    When you are fighting for your rights and what is RIGHT, then there can be no price too high. And, Charley now has a criminal record, which is BOGUS!
    I guess the next question is does Charley want to pursue this further. I presume that is possible, that there are grounds for appeal or other course of action that may be indicated.

    When that is known, then local people can establish the conduit whereby we may tender assistance - this forum can and will rise to a just cause.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 03-08-2013 at 11:01 PM.
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  10. #135
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I intend to appeal. However, I am going to discuss the matter with my attorney sometime next week. I personally feel that the case is "interesting" enough that a court higher than the circuit court will want to hear it even though they aren't required to hear it. I have been getting some vibes from my employer, however, that missing too much more work to fight this may wind up costing me my job. I will let everyone know more sometime next week.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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  11. #136
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    Re: Arrested last night

    I was ready to fight a speeding ticket until my brother-in-law the attorney asked me if the fine was less than the money I'd lose by missing work to fight it and might still lose and have to pay the fine and court costs. Believe me, I understand the principle of the thing, but in the end is it worth your job?

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  12. #137
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Glockster, I did not choose the best words to communicate what I was trying to say.

    Though there is never a "small battle" when it comes to rights, there are some larger than others. What happened to CC should have never happened.

    It seems to us who would never wish to yield our rights (even for a moment) that it its a major thing, but it seems most do not see it this way. It is far from a sure thing that an appeal would fix the damages. If we get an appellate court siding with the officers, it would just reenforce their actions as correct. It seems to me that it could easily make things worse.

    This "lessor" court should have but didn't correct the problem, the next court could easily go the same way. The cost to just let it go is only $50 but it would be the same plus court/lawyers fees if CC appeals it and loses it. Now he says he may lose his job if he pursues this further.

    Nobody can fight all the wrongs in this world, sometimes we must let them go.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  13. #138
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    Glockster, I did not choose the best words to communicate what I was trying to say.

    Though there is never a "small battle" when it comes to rights, there are some larger than others. What happened to CC should have never happened.

    It seems to us who would never wish to yield our rights (even for a moment) that it its a major thing, but it seems most do not see it this way. It is far from a sure thing that an appeal would fix the damages. If we get an appellate court siding with the officers, it would just reenforce their actions as correct. It seems to me that it could easily make things worse.

    This "lessor" court should have but didn't correct the problem, the next court could easily go the same way. The cost to just let it go is only $50 but it would be the same plus court/lawyers fees if CC appeals it and loses it. Now he says he may lose his job if he pursues this further.

    Nobody can fight all the wrongs in this world, sometimes we must let them go.
    Sad but true
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
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    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Sad but true
    And by letting them go when we become personally involved we allow the governmenet to squander our freedoms and our rights. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Our Federal government has attained the level of unconstitutional power they have because we have stood by and done nothing. Now they are nearly too powerful to stop, and believe they are entitled to do anything they please because we have allowed them to do so for so long. Are we willing to allow this to happen at the state level, regardless of how small the infraction? When someone's rights are violated it is NEVER a small infraction in my eyes, nor should it be in others.

    Charley does NOT deserve to have a misdemeanor conviction on his record because he did NOTHING WRONG. Having any type of criminal conviction on my record would be a major issue if I did nothing to deserve it! The encounter never should have went past a request for a DL. The SCOTUS has ruled that without RAS that a crime is afoot, the carrying of a weapon does NOT give cause for a Terry Stop where it is legal to do so. This officer violated numerous laws and several of Charley's rights -- rights protected by the US Constitution and the KY Constitution. This is definately worth appealing.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  15. #140
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    And by letting them go when we become personally involved we allow the governmenet to squander our freedoms and our rights. The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Our Federal government has attained the level of unconstitutional power they have because we have stood by and done nothing. Now they are nearly too powerful to stop, and believe they are entitled to do anything they please because we have allowed them to do so for so long. Are we willing to allow this to happen at the state level, regardless of how small the infraction? When someone's rights are violated it is NEVER a small infraction in my eyes, nor should it be in others.

    Charley does NOT deserve to have a misdemeanor conviction on his record because he did NOTHING WRONG. Having any type of criminal conviction on my record would be a major issue if I did nothing to deserve it! The encounter never should have went past a request for a DL. The SCOTUS has ruled that without RAS that a crime is afoot, the carrying of a weapon does NOT give cause for a Terry Stop where it is legal to do so. This officer violated numerous laws and several of Charley's rights -- rights protected by the US Constitution and the KY Constitution. This is definately worth appealing.
    I can see your side of the coin. I can't disagree with you...to a point. It's easy for all of us to say "fight til the death." But that approach may not be the way Charlie views it. In the grand scheme of things he has a lot to lose by pursuing this. Job, home, money, family??? I understand that he also has his liberty to lose which is a whole hell of a lot in itself. I understand that if you give up a right today not to expect that you will get it back tomorrow. There is no easy answer for this because it's a damned if you do, damed if ya don't situation.

    I hate to quote an old Kenny Rogers song, but sometimes you do have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. (Now I have that damn song stuck in my head) I'm not saying that for every injustice that we suffer that we should just take it like a b**ch and go on. That would be the worse thing we could do. But with anything in life you have to know your limits. You have to understand that you can't win them all. I know when it comes to our beloved freedom that is a hard and terrible pill to swollow. But life isn't always fair and it sure the hell isn't always what you think it should be. Charley is just going to have to look in his heart for what he feels is best for him and his. Only he will know. Not us.

    If he can pursue this without destroying his life...God speed to him. If he knows that he could lose it all but wants to pursue anyhow...God speed to him. If he pays $50.00 and goes home because he felt that was the right move for his well being....Through my eyes, no shame in that either.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  16. #141
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    I can see your side of the coin. I can't disagree with you...to a point. It's easy for all of us to say "fight til the death." But that approach may not be the way Charlie views it. In the grand scheme of things he has a lot to lose by pursuing this. Job, home, money, family??? I understand that he also has his liberty to lose which is a whole hell of a lot in itself. I understand that if you give up a right today not to expect that you will get it back tomorrow. There is no easy answer for this because it's a damned if you do, damed if ya don't situation.

    I hate to quote an old Kenny Rogers song, but sometimes you do have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them. (Now I have that damn song stuck in my head) I'm not saying that for every injustice that we suffer that we should just take it like a b**ch and go on. That would be the worse thing we could do. But with anything in life you have to know your limits. You have to understand that you can't win them all. I know when it comes to our beloved freedom that is a hard and terrible pill to swollow. But life isn't always fair and it sure the hell isn't always what you think it should be. Charley is just going to have to look in his heart for what he feels is best for him and his. Only he will know. Not us.

    If he can pursue this without destroying his life...God speed to him. If he knows that he could lose it all but wants to pursue anyhow...God speed to him. If he pays $50.00 and goes home because he felt that was the right move for his well being....Through my eyes, no shame in that either.
    Agree 100% - will support his decision either way.
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

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  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Agree 100% - will support his decision either way.
    I will support his decision as well. I am just trying to get people to understand that this is not a SMALL matter that Charley is dealing with. This has affected his life in a major way, and has certainly harmed his name in the process. Not only this, but he will probably have problems buying firearms in the future because of this nonsense -- such as having to wait three days before a sale can proceed because this conviction will flag with his name.

    I would like to come out immediately and say that I am willing to help in any way I can if he does decide to appeal this verdict. I know there are many more here that would bend over backwards to help the cause as well, because this isn't just a fight for what is right concerning Charley, this is a fight for ALL of our RIGHTS. This case could very well set precedent for years to come concerning the legality of carrying a firearm in one's vehicle visibly without a license! Officers need to know they cannot disarm us without RAS, and this would be just the case to get the point across!

    I stand behind Charley either way, but I hope like hell he finds the strength to appeal this bogus verdict!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I won't get into much detail on the forum here, but...
    At this point CC, can you share the details ? I am quite interested and have been waiting since the OP for those details. Is there a court transcript that is "public" without having to say "your side" and risk any damage should you appeal?
    Last edited by Slidell Jim; 03-10-2013 at 08:26 PM.

  19. #144
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I will work on getting a transcript together that I can share. I have the transcript from the suppression hearing available that I can share. I will work on putting that on here or scanning it to share or something.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I will work on getting a transcript together that I can share. I have the transcript from the suppression hearing available that I can share. I will work on putting that on here or scanning it to share or something.
    That could be an interesting read. Also was there any audio/vidoe of the encounter. I understand it was at a checkpoint. Sometime there are videos available from the multiple cruzer cams or body mic's of the revenue collectors. Was there any such media made available to you in this case?

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I will work on getting a transcript together that I can share. I have the transcript from the suppression hearing available that I can share. I will work on putting that on here or scanning it to share or something.
    Let me know if I can help you with that. I live here in Paducah and have access to a scanner that can scan 50 pages to a pdf and email it to you in about 2 minutes. I would be willing to do the scans while you watch or just set it up and let you put the paper in the tray and hit the button. Just let me know.

    Orion

  22. #147
    Regular Member CharleyCherokee's Avatar
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    I would actually appreciate that. I'll have to find the time to have you do that sometime. Otherwise I'm going to have to type it out.. So yeah. I'll get in touch with you.
    A bullet may have your name on it, but shrapnel is addressed to whom it may concern.
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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharleyCherokee View Post
    I would actually appreciate that. I'll have to find the time to have you do that sometime. Otherwise I'm going to have to type it out.. So yeah. I'll get in touch with you.
    Just let me know. The place I have to do that at is in the building behind Home Depot.

    Orion

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