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Thread: Was told to disarm by LEO today inside of a police station while OC'ing

  1. #1
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Was told to disarm by LEO today inside of a police station while OC'ing

    You may remember a few months back I had a meeting with the Mayor of Owingsville about the "no guns allowed" signs that he had placed at city hall, the fire station and the police station. After about a week he emailed me and said I was right and the signs were removed.

    I guess they didn't pass this information down to their LEO's because today I went inside the PD to file a complaint and the Detective at the desk saw my sidearm and said "you can't have weapons inside a goverment building" because we just passed an ordiance on it. I told him that that only applied to CC and not OC. (conversation was recorded, I just have to figure out how to upload it)

    He said no, you can't have a gun in here at all. Considering that I was there to report a pedophile with warrent(s) that had been spotted a couple of streets over I ask him to step outside so I could talk to him.
    After giving my report he said let's step back inside to check the computer, but you will have to leave your gun in the car. Who's ass could I have for this?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  2. #2
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    I would contact the mayor Tuesday, unless you personally know him and can contact during this holiday weekend and explain the situation to him and have him contact the local PD and remind them of the laws.

    It's pretty sad that as citizens, we can be arrested for breaking a law that we are unaware of, but the government and police can claim ignorance of the law and be mostly immune to prosecution.

  3. #3
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Yes, since nothing was hurt the detective would be completely shielded from any prosecution. If it was the other way around, such as I not knowing it was illegal to carry into the Circuit Court Clerk's office then I would have been arrested.

    Like FB said, talk to someone higher up about it. If you want, print off all the applicable laws, then either send it certified mail (my suggestion) or hand deliver it to the police station. They won't believe you are right, they'll do their own research, come to a false conclusion and maintain their stance, but if you are ever arrested after that, you have a very good legal standing to get things amended.

    It is usually best not to argue with an officer, as they are not required to know the law. I am glad you had your recorder rolling.
    No man alive can beat me in a fair fight: It's not fair to chase a man down and beat him.

  4. #4
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    I am glad you had your recorder rolling.
    Always, Brother.... I had it rolling because I was OC'ing. Not just because I knew I would catch sh!t for walking into the PD(because I didn't know I would catch sh!t). But it is best to always keep it rolling. Man, I just feel like I took that as a little B**ch. But that baby raper around the corner was my biggest concern at that point.

    I'm going to see the Mayor Tuesday. The LEO was nice about it and he answered my call very fast but still... It was like a kick to the balls to disarm when I knew I was legal in wearing. The first time I pointed this out to them (the city, banning OC on city property) "they said "we didn't know" and I'm sure that today the LEO "just didn't know" but the third time this happens I can't accept the excuse of "we didn't any better"...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  5. #5
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Probably shouldn't have done this but living in a small town I thought what the hell. I had the dectetive stop by the house and we sat on the porch and talked about this incident (recorded of course)

    I informed him of 65.870 and how I had just talked about this to the mayor and that there was a reason that those "no guns allowed" signs disappered. Belive me, he didn't want to talk about that. They say not to talk to LEO about the law but I just had to test this theory.

    Believe me folks, they don't not want to talk about how they are wrong. Small town or big they will get up and walk to their car and leave. He stated that you can't carry in a goverment building or while a meeting is going on(not carry at all...even OC..I know you cant CC but you can OC)

    He even went as far to say that even if it is legal "if a city officer tells you not to carry in here then you probably shouldn't" I'll talk to the Mayor Tuesday but I'm going to meet resistance on this from PD. But he did make a comment that has been discussed on here to no end. We talked about Federal law vs. State law, state law vs city law and he said "I can't enforce Federal law"..
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  6. #6
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Oh yeah. He also told me that I could be charged with "disorderly conduct" or "failure to obey" if I carry inside the PD again.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  7. #7
    Regular Member 09jisaac's Avatar
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    Hell, I'll walk in there. If you want to meet up sometime, just point to the police station and I'll walk in, or we can talk to him together.

    *Edit: Also, he has no legal grounds for either of those. What statute is "failure to obey"?
    Last edited by 09jisaac; 09-01-2012 at 08:18 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 09jisaac View Post
    What statute is "failure to obey"?
    That's the one I use on my imaginary dog.

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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    Oh yeah. He also told me that I could be charged with "disorderly conduct" or "failure to obey" if I carry inside the PD again.
    I wouldn't go back until you had a chance to talk to the mayor. No point in poking beehive yet.

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    They are just doing you like they would anyone; most people are ignorant of their rights and they use that to their advantage! If he really THOUGHT you were breaking the law you would have been arrested! I would contact the mayor ASAP and inform him of his officers trying to enforce law that does not exist.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  11. #11
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I emailed the Mayor last night to inform him of what happened and I requested a meeting with him and the police chief for this Tuesday. Here is the email I got back this morning from the mayor.
    Chris,

    I am sorry this incident occured. I will talk with the officer that was on duty today on Tuesday. Todd may not be available on Tuesday because his wife has been in the hospital in serious condition for the past few days. We haven't passed any ordinances on gun control since I've been mayor. I will get back with you on Tuesday after talking with the officer. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. We all need to be on the same track and that track is the legal one. I am strict on following the law regardless of whether or not I always agree with it. Thanks again and I'll talk to you on Tuesday.

    Gary


    You will have to listen to the recording of the arguments the LEO tried to use to prove he was right. He once quoted a gun law and said it was this way, I said no it's that way. He said go look it and when I told him that I already had he got up and walked to his cruiser and left.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    We all need to be on the same track and that track is the legal one. I am strict on following the law regardless of whether or not I always agree with it.
    Anti gunner talk .. he probably patted the cop on the back

  13. #13
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Anti gunner talk .. he probably patted the cop on the back
    He isn't a gun man. He will tell you that himself. But when I have dealt with him in the past he seems to have a desire to not base his choices off of his personal views and beliefs, but rather follow what the laws says.

    I guess we will see...
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  14. #14
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Can anyone provide a cite that states that DC would not apply to legal OC? Or did we reach that conclusion based off of the wording of the DC statute?
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by self preservation View Post
    He isn't a gun man. He will tell you that himself. But when I have dealt with him in the past he seems to have a desire to not base his choices off of his personal views and beliefs, but rather follow what the laws says.

    I guess we will see...
    Who doesn't have to follow the law? Right. The question is what did he actually do the the cop...nothing in reality. And what can he do in reality? Union issues to deal with...

  16. #16
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    I have a meeting with the Mayor at 9 in the morning. I will highlight the cannots from the KLC page once again. More importantly the ones that state:
    A city cannot prohibit citizens from openly carrying deadly weapons anywhere on city property.
    And
    A city cannot seize or revoke the right to carry a deadly weapon if that weapon is legally possessed,even in times of an emergency or disaster.
    I'm going to suggest that all city LEO have a "refresher" in Ky gun law. Kind of like what Cincinnati just did. Any other suggestions of what I should bring up in the morning?

    PS. Has anyone heard from Gutshot lately????
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  17. #17
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    [FONT=arial black][SIZE=4]Personally, I wouldn't say anything about it. I'm not talking to any local governments about violations until Jan., when we can charge them with official misconduct.
    I'm doing nothing more than leaving a paper trail. Between the saved emails between the mayor and I, the recordings and meetings, If they still continue this come January I think a judge would see that a good faith effort by a citizen (me) has been made to attempt to get the city to correct their actions.

    I don't want them to be able to play the "we didn't know" card if that time comes. And yes, I have had this meeting once before. The illegal signs were removed but the information on the Can and Cannots of legally possessed, openly carried weapons(sic,KLC) were not passed down.

    That is what I will be pushing for this morning, a class, training, inservice...what ever you wish to call it, to be taught to all city LEO, the women at the front desk of city hall, the fire Chief, and anyone else who may have authority inside of city buildings. The things this LEO said in regards to Ky gun laws made ice water run in my veins.

    My cat has more knowledge on gun law than this "Detective" does. Scary when the people that we pay to enforce the law don't know the law. That is starting to become very common in KY for some reason.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    They can't arrest you for DC or Menacing because neither statute has anything to do with the carrying of firearms or weapons. Another reason they can't charge you for ANY crime for OCing is because the KY Supreme Court has prohibited them from doing so with their ruling in the Holland case. NO ONE CAN DENY OUR RIGHT TO CARRY A FIREARM AS LONG AS THAT FIREARM IS CARRIED FOR ALL TO SEE.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  19. #19
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    So what happened at the meeting?

  20. #20
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrOverlay View Post
    So what happened at the meeting?
    "I'm so, so sorry this happened"...Is pretty much how it started and ended. The (Mayor) made the plea that the LEO simply didn't know. He could be right in the fact that the LEO didn't know, but I pointed out to the Mayor that a few months back that we had already had this conversation and I was curious as to why this info was never passed down. Plus it wasn't my job to teach the LEO's the law.

    I suggested that all city officials/employees be made aware of 65.870. For the guys at the city garage, sewer plant, Fire Dept. Etc, a simple word of mouth "OC is allowed on and in city property so don't try to restrict an OC'er" would probably work... As for the LEO's, I suggested that they have an official inservice/training on 65.870. The mayor agreed on this and is supposed to be talking to the city attorney and police chief to make this happen. I will follow up on that.

    I made mention of the LEO "threating" a charge of DC and "failure to obey" (whatever in the hell that is) if anyone OC'd inside a city building. Showed him the page from Cincinnati and suggested that the city do a similar "can and cannots" for our LEO's. He said "lets do this first" (refering to the inservice for LEO's) so I doubt a letter from the Chief or city Attorney saying that DC will not work for an OC'er will ever happen, so I may be back on here asking for donations to fight an illegal DC charge.

    I was polite but made it known that this would be the last meeting the I would have with him. The "we didn't know any better" would not work from here on out. I guess I'll see how it goes from here..
    Last edited by self preservation; 09-05-2012 at 04:31 PM.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  21. #21
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    KRS 65.870 does not require any notifications, warnings or "good faith effort"
    Correct. And this will be the last meeting I have with them. I may only be fooling myself, but I believe that if I have to take this to court it would look better for my defense. As for my cat running for Mayor, don't we already have enough Puss's in politics the way it is???
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Well, at least your Mayor is willing to listen and correct the problems instead of giving you the run around.

  23. #23
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gutshot View Post
    You've done all you can do, for now. Just wait and see how they deal with it. Some people just learn at a slower pace than others. Jan. is not far off. Once it arrives, I'd be glad to join you or anyone else in OC'ing in your police station or just video you doing it (and whatever develops). Hopefully, the city will deal with this and no further action will be necessary. Good luck.
    Thank you. I feel that this time more will be done to address the issue than what was(n't) done last time. I could be wrong but I expect some retaliation from the Detective. Our police dept. consist of 5 LEO's. Very small town, very small police force, very friendly LEO's. But the Detective came here from another county and has a different mentality. It really showed when he stated to me "even if it is legal, if a city officer tells you to do something, you should just do it".

    I'm not sure if the other officers will feel like their authority has been challenged or not by having to take this training. They shouldn't but who knows? I may get pulled over every time I drive through town now just because they can. But to quote Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"

    Once again, thank you for your offer of support.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

  24. #24
    Regular Member self preservation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flb_78 View Post
    Well, at least your Mayor is willing to listen and correct the problems instead of giving you the run around.
    I will have to give the Mayor credit. The first time I talked to him about the "no guns allowed" signs he never gave any resistance or gave me the run around. After about a month later a NGA sign still remained in the police station.(who'd thunk it?) I emailed him and reminded him that PD was not off limits to 65.870 and he apologized and said that he thought that it had been taken down. He assured me that it would be removed that evening and it was.

    Our last meeting could have been over in 20 minutes but he ask a lot of other gun law questions. It seemed to me he was asking because his curiosity had been peaked. We even discussed the (ideas, theories, facts???) that a LAC that is armed is safer than a person that is unarmed and defenceless. Not only for himself and his family but also for who ever is around him. Of course he brought up the CO theater shooting and made the comment "imagine if 1,5,20 or even 50 people had been legally armed and returned fire, imagine the lives that could have been saved that night."

    Keep in mind that this man once wanted to ban any and all guns from city buildings. I believe that he is starting to come around and see that an armed LAC works way better than a metal sign with a rule posted on it.
    “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke

    self-pres·er·va·tion (slfprzr-vshn)
    n.
    1. Protection of oneself from harm or destruction.
    2. The instinct for individual preservation; the innate desire to stay alive.

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    Maybe you should invite him out shooting some time.

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