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Thread: Idaho. Legal to CC or OC at colleges and university's?

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    Idaho. Legal to CC or OC at colleges and university's?

    I understand that you cant carry on school grounds, but does this apply to colleges and university's?

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    Regular Member jimd_21's Avatar
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    Idaho. Legal to CC or OC at colleges and university's?

    Yes it does apply if your a student. If not a student then all they can do is ask you to leave.
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry View Post
    I understand that you cant carry on school grounds, but does this apply to colleges and university's?
    How about, it is not "illegal", but it may be against policy. If you are a student they may discipline you. If you are not a student, they really can do nothing more than tell you to leave...and then even that is questionable.

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    Idaho Code (IC) § 18-3302J is the law which notes, in section (5)(c):

    (c) The authority of the board of regents of the university of Idaho, the boards of trustees of the state colleges and universities, the board of professional-technical education and the boards of trustees of each of the community colleges established under chapter 21, title 33, Idaho Code, to regulate in matters relating to firearms.

    While I am not a lawyer (INAL) and this is not advice, here is my conclusion:
    Per this law, colleges are given full Idaho state-statutory (state law) authority to regulate Conceal Carry (CC) and not that of Open Carry (OC), that of allowing or banning CC.

    Our state Constitution reads in Article I, Sections 1 & 10:
    Section 1. INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF MAN. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.

    Section 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person ...


    It has been over four years since the landmark 2008 Heller decision on the Second Amendment where the US Supreme Court held that there is an individual right to “carry a weapon for the purpose of self-defense” and for other lawful purposes; Open Carry being the lawful manner of carry.

    Robertson v. Baldwin – 165 U.S. 275 (1897),
    District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – U.S. Supreme Court 2008
    McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 – U.S. Supreme Court 2010.

    The Heller Court had this to say in comparing concealed carry to Open Carry:

    “Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”"

    As such, in light of U.S. Supreme Court rulings, Federal and State of Idaho Constitutions, and State of Idaho laws, the reader has the option to decide whether to Open Carry or not, be it on an Idaho college campus or elsewhere* one chooses in this good State of Idaho.

    _______________________________
    U.S. Supreme Court information gleaned from: CaliforniaRightToCarry.org
    Specifically, this web page: http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/?page_id=195

    *By "elsewhere", I imply and will explicitly state of those locations wherein the reader has both confidence and money to endure the legal onslaught from the local, city, county, state and/or federal gov't for the right to Open Carry.
    For me, presently, I've not won any $100Million+ lottery lately (don't play it much, either...).
    As such, I go *way* out of my way to avoid federal locations.
    Practicing writing one's signature very largely is also the reader's choice.
    Last edited by TechStuffBC; 09-07-2012 at 09:06 AM. Reason: minor edits

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    I would have to disagree with the above conclusion about CC. In my unlegal opinion 18-3302J doesn't give them any authority to do anything it simply states that this statued doesn't directly apply to them. They are still assuming they have authority which has yet to be proven or disproven either in court of law or state law. When I was in college we wrote a letter to the AG asking this very question and what we got back was 54 pages of we don't know(I will see if I can find it and post a link to it). Furthermore I can not find any reference to the Board of Regents having the power to write criminal code. Their rules against carry are school policy/school rules not a matter of state law. So in my opinion the most they could ask is for you to leave that is assuming they somehow found out you were carrying concealed. Even then they could have a problem because I you are not breaking any laws and as far as I can tell the University is public property because it is a land grant institution.

    I went to college with the gentleman who wrote 18-3302J and in the end it came down to being an election year and a few legislators who pledged their support suddenly reneged when the time came to a vote. So hopefully in the next few years we will be able to get it back in the spotlight and finally make colleges a safer place instead of relying on gun free zones to work and allow student, staff and teachers the ability to protect themselves without risking expulsion/termination. Yet again not a Lawyer so I could be completely wrong about this but this is what I took away from all the conversations when 3302J was passed and my research since then.
    Last edited by Louie86; 09-09-2012 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Clarification of my argument

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    It all rests with the State Board of Education

    The State Board of Education IS the Board of Regents for UI and is the board of trustees with complete oversight authority for all Idaho colleges. Yes, there are some community college boards, but ultimately, by the Idaho Constitution, the State Board of Education has complete policy and oversight control over all institutions of higher learning in the state.

    Although it has general policies regarding all institutions in its administrative rules (IDAPA), the State Board of Education generally just accepts whatever is submitted to it as a policy document from each institution. Typically, each institution's policies are written by folks in each president's office.

    BSU, for example, submitted and got approved its anti-gun policy. Thank you Dr. Kustra.

    And thank you, Board of Education, for blindly rubber-stamping anti-gun policies at each college in Idaho.

    Each and every board member since 1994 has been appointed by our Republican governors - governors who espouse pro-gun beliefs but don't follow through. They have plausible deniability through their appointees.

    Stop supporting Republican madness in this state - if you're not happy how things are going in Idaho, you only have yourself to blame for voting Republican, as it's been the supermajority party for nearly 20 years.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    There are actually 2 court cases in ID that fit. One imperfectly, as it only concerns the whole state and not the universities in specific, and the other is presently in process...which involves a UI law student that has taken the BoR to court because oif their anti-gun policy...that case I believe is presently on appeal.

    anyway, the first one is "in re Brickley" 1902. You can read it here: http://www.guncite.com/court/state/70p609.html

    Good read and extremely short considering it is a State Supreme Court ruling.

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    Hermannr,

    The first case from 1902 doesn't deal with Universities so as you stated doesn't exactly fit. Without more knowledge of law I am not entirely sure if it even applies in any way, of course this is my unlegal opinion. As for the second case it has already been settled and he lost. That case had to do with keeping a firearm in married student housing and it was found that since he chose to live on campus they could restrict firearms in the housing agreement. It didn't have anything to do with actually carrying on campus so even if he wins on appeal it still wont allow carry on campus.

    I would like to thank you for the 1902 case I am not sure how I missed it when looking through old cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie86 View Post
    Hermannr,

    The first case from 1902 doesn't deal with Universities so as you stated doesn't exactly fit. Without more knowledge of law I am not entirely sure if it even applies in any way, of course this is my unlegal opinion. As for the second case it has already been settled and he lost. That case had to do with keeping a firearm in married student housing and it was found that since he chose to live on campus they could restrict firearms in the housing agreement. It didn't have anything to do with actually carrying on campus so even if he wins on appeal it still wont allow carry on campus.

    I would like to thank you for the 1902 case I am not sure how I missed it when looking through old cases.
    Well Louie, the law student at UI is basing his case partly on that old 1902 ruling. How does it apply? The Idaho State Supreme court basically said, Local government cannot BAN carry...so, is, or is not, the University BoR a "local governmant or public authority"? That is the question the next appeal will answer. and yes, that married student is appealing the negative ruling he received at the district level.
    Last edited by hermannr; 09-16-2012 at 11:55 PM.

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    What about private colleges like BYU-I? Can I concealed carry there, esp with a Utah permit? I am visiting for the weekend and will likely be heading on campus for part of my time there.

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    Re: Idaho. Legal to CC or OC at colleges and university's?

    While byui has a no weapons rule on campus it is not illegal. Last time I looked up their policies somehow they thought IC 18-3302D applied. If I was discovered carrying on byui campus I would immediately leave and not wait for a response. Also a Utah permit is good in Idaho.

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    Last edited by bowb; 12-14-2012 at 09:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sk8erord View Post
    What about private colleges like BYU-I? Can I concealed carry there, esp with a Utah permit? I am visiting for the weekend and will likely be heading on campus for part of my time there.
    I have personally OC'd and CC'd with a Utah permit at that location as a visitor after reviewing the laws and felt comfortable that I was NOT in violation of ANY of Idaho State Statutes! I had NO interactions with any person in authority or not at this location related to my carry of a tool for self-defense!

    Don't do it just because I did it, but review that statutes/regulations and make your OWN decision. LOL
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechStuffBC View Post
    Idaho Code (IC) § 18-3302J is the law which notes, in section (5)(c):

    (c) The authority of the board of regents of the university of Idaho, the boards of trustees of the state colleges and universities, the board of professional-technical education and the boards of trustees of each of the community colleges established under chapter 21, title 33, Idaho Code, to regulate in matters relating to firearms.

    While I am not a lawyer (INAL) and this is not advice, here is my conclusion:
    Per this law, colleges are given full Idaho state-statutory (state law) authority to regulate Conceal Carry (CC) and not that of Open Carry (OC), that of allowing or banning CC.

    Our state Constitution reads in Article I, Sections 1 & 10:
    Section 1. INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF MAN. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.

    Section 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person ...


    It has been over four years since the landmark 2008 Heller decision on the Second Amendment where the US Supreme Court held that there is an individual right to “carry a weapon for the purpose of self-defense” and for other lawful purposes; Open Carry being the lawful manner of carry.

    Robertson v. Baldwin – 165 U.S. 275 (1897),
    District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – U.S. Supreme Court 2008
    McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 – U.S. Supreme Court 2010.

    The Heller Court had this to say in comparing concealed carry to Open Carry:

    “Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”"

    As such, in light of U.S. Supreme Court rulings, Federal and State of Idaho Constitutions, and State of Idaho laws, the reader has the option to decide whether to Open Carry or not, be it on an Idaho college campus or elsewhere* one chooses in this good State of Idaho.

    _______________________________
    U.S. Supreme Court information gleaned from: CaliforniaRightToCarry.org
    Specifically, this web page: http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/?page_id=195

    *By "elsewhere", I imply and will explicitly state of those locations wherein the reader has both confidence and money to endure the legal onslaught from the local, city, county, state and/or federal gov't for the right to Open Carry.
    For me, presently, I've not won any $100Million+ lottery lately (don't play it much, either...).
    As such, I go *way* out of my way to avoid federal locations.
    Practicing writing one's signature very largely is also the reader's choice.
    You missed the absolutely applicable ruling..."In re Brickley...Idaho State Supreme court ruling 1902.

  14. #14
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louie86 View Post
    Hermannr,

    The first case from 1902 doesn't deal with Universities so as you stated doesn't exactly fit. Without more knowledge of law I am not entirely sure if it even applies in any way, of course this is my unlegal opinion. As for the second case it has already been settled and he lost. That case had to do with keeping a firearm in married student housing and it was found that since he chose to live on campus they could restrict firearms in the housing agreement. It didn't have anything to do with actually carrying on campus so even if he wins on appeal it still wont allow carry on campus.

    I would like to thank you for the 1902 case I am not sure how I missed it when looking through old cases.
    I don't know how I missed this earlier, but "In re Brickley" does affect the University...it was a territorial legislative law that Lewiston was basing it's restriction on...it was a state law that was thrown out, and with it, the local law. The Supreme Court stated that neither the State, or local government, can make any law restricting OC in Idaho. At least that is how I read it. Have you seen a state law restricting OC since? That is the argument in the present law suit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TechStuffBC View Post
    Idaho Code (IC) § 18-3302J is the law which notes, in section (5)(c):

    (c) The authority of the board of regents of the university of Idaho, the boards of trustees of the state colleges and universities, the board of professional-technical education and the boards of trustees of each of the community colleges established under chapter 21, title 33, Idaho Code, to regulate in matters relating to firearms.

    While I am not a lawyer (INAL) and this is not advice, here is my conclusion:
    Per this law, colleges are given full Idaho state-statutory (state law) authority to regulate Conceal Carry (CC) and not that of Open Carry (OC), that of allowing or banning CC.

    Our state Constitution reads in Article I, Sections 1 & 10:
    Section 1. INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF MAN. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.

    Section 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons concealed on the person ...


    It has been over four years since the landmark 2008 Heller decision on the Second Amendment where the US Supreme Court held that there is an individual right to “carry a weapon for the purpose of self-defense” and for other lawful purposes; Open Carry being the lawful manner of carry.

    Robertson v. Baldwin – 165 U.S. 275 (1897),
    District of Columbia v. Heller, 128 S. Ct. 2783 – U.S. Supreme Court 2008
    McDonald v. City of Chicago, Ill., 130 S. Ct. 3020 – U.S. Supreme Court 2010.

    The Heller Court had this to say in comparing concealed carry to Open Carry:

    “Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.”"

    As such, in light of U.S. Supreme Court rulings, Federal and State of Idaho Constitutions, and State of Idaho laws, the reader has the option to decide whether to Open Carry or not, be it on an Idaho college campus or elsewhere* one chooses in this good State of Idaho.

    _______________________________
    U.S. Supreme Court information gleaned from: CaliforniaRightToCarry.org
    Specifically, this web page: http://blog.californiarighttocarry.org/?page_id=195

    *By "elsewhere", I imply and will explicitly state of those locations wherein the reader has both confidence and money to endure the legal onslaught from the local, city, county, state and/or federal gov't for the right to Open Carry.
    For me, presently, I've not won any $100Million+ lottery lately (don't play it much, either...).
    As such, I go *way* out of my way to avoid federal locations.
    Practicing writing one's signature very largely is also the reader's choice.
    You missed the absolutely applicable ruling..."In re Brickley...Idaho State Supreme court ruling 1902.
    You missed the absolutely applicable constitutional references provided.

    The most applicable aspect of what was posted:
    Our state Constitution reads in Article I, Section 1:
    Section 1. INALIENABLE RIGHTS OF MAN. All men are by nature free and equal, and have certain inalienable rights, among which are enjoying and defending life and liberty; acquiring, possessing and protecting property; pursuing happiness and securing safety.

    As such: Any such state (or county, city, or other local) Idaho gov't entity has not the state-constitutional authority to deny a citizen the right to defending life and/or securing safety.

    Article I, Section 10 seems to be in conflict with Article I, Section 1 in that the the law passed by Idaho Legislators, that being Idaho Code (IC) §18-3302, does prohibit a person from defending life and/or securing safety. Again, though, just my opinion.
    Last edited by TechStuffBC; 12-23-2012 at 08:54 PM.

  16. #16
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    For the most comprehensive discussion of the current state of the law on the issue of carrying firearms on an Idaho college campus, read the NRA's amicus brief filed in the case of Tribble v. State Board of Education, currently on appeal at the Idaho Supreme Court. The brief, from the respected Boise law firm of Nevin, Benjamin, McKay, and Bartlett, is available here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3C8...YkE/edit?pli=1

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