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Thread: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

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    Question Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Hello,

    I am brand new to the whole open carry stuff... I have been reading the threads here. I also have my CPL. But can you guys shed some light on it? like a guide for dummy's?

    Also, when I get stopped by police for open carry, is there a chart or text of MCL laws that I can bring up on my phone or print out and show to the officer or supervising officer that I am indeed ok to carry?

    Some often say because my barrel is not showing it is concealed, but I guess having a CPL I can tell them, I have a cpl regardless... even if it is open carry.

    sorry for being a noob, just dont want to go to jail lol

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    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    Re: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Follow this advice from Griffin. It will put on the right side of things (including prision bars - not behind)!

    +1 Griff :thumbup:

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Just be ready for the police to refuse to even look at any printed materials. This occurred a number of times in the early days of the OC movement.

    I can only speculate why, so I won't. We just know it occurred. Some police are more interested in whatever it is they have planned for you; not in finding out what you say they are doing wrong.

    I'm not saying don't try to show it to them. I am saying to also keep in mind that they might totally ignore it.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Also on the subject of police stops see the sticky for wash, rinse, repeat. It is a proven method of "what to say & not say" during a stop. One very important item all OCers ( remember some people see OC as radical ) should have is a voice recorder. It eliminates all of the he said - she said nonsense.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-01-2012 at 11:19 PM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Thank you all for your replies, I greatly appreciated that.

    So in regards to recorders... do we legally have to tell them we are recording for our safety or just record or whats the legal procedure?

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    Thank you all for your replies, I greatly appreciated that.

    So in regards to recorders... do we legally have to tell them we are recording for our safety or just record or whats the legal procedure?
    You may record any public official in the performance of their duty in MI. You DO NOT need to tell them you are recording. Also it is amazing how often their recordings - audio & video of stops come up missing or with huge gaps in them.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    You may record any public official in the performance of their duty in MI. You DO NOT need to tell them you are recording. Also it is amazing how often their recordings - audio & video of stops come up missing or with huge gaps in them.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    beautiful, thanks for that.

    appreciate you guys!

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    Regular Member cmdr_iceman71's Avatar
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    No, you do not have to disclose to a LEO that you are recording them. Why? They have no expecatation of privacy while performing their duties as public servants. Secondly they would make it their mission in life to get their hands on that recorder so as to turn it off. However, the only places where you can get jammed up with a recorder is where the "general public" doesnt have access hence anyone in said area would enjoy an "expectation of privacy" so you would have to stop recording or ask permission from the private property owner.
    "Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth." - President George Washington

    "Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." - Thomas Jefferson

    "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself." - Thomas Paine

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    MCL 750.234d provides that it is a 90 day misdemeanor to possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    • A depository financial institution (e.g., bank or credit union)
    • A church or other place of religious worship
    • A court
    • A theater
    • A sports arena
    • A day care center
    • A hospital
    • An establishment licensed under the Liquor Control Code



    The above section does not apply to any of the following:
    • The owner or a person hired as security (if the firearm is possessed for the purpose of providing security)
    • A peace officer
    • A person with a valid concealed pistol license (CPL) issued by any state
    • A person who possesses on one of the above listed premises with the permission of the owner or owner’s agent
    Just to clarify, does that mean I can carry my weapon into those places, unless there is a note on the entry of the building stating otherwise? I thought we could NOT carry concealed in a establishment that serves alcohol, regardless. I heard many things in terms of that. So, I can carry if I go into a movie theater as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    beautiful, thanks for that.

    appreciate you guys!
    Um. Let me make sure I understand this. Some guy you don't know, on the internet, hands you some legal info, and you believe it to the point of being thankful?

    Lemme show you how we do it around here. (next post)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    You may record any public official in the performance of their duty in MI. You DO NOT need to tell them you are recording. Also it is amazing how often their recordings - audio & video of stops come up missing or with huge gaps in them.

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rule #5

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Last edited by Citizen; 09-01-2012 at 11:40 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    on the rear of my cpl ID it states:

    This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, stadium, bar or tavern licensed to serves liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or casino or as otherwise prohibited by law. Consult the statue for complete wording of pistol free zones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    on the rear of my cpl ID it states:
    You can carry openly. Dont carry in a post office, fed building, some casinos, and secure areas of airports and jails.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-02-2012 at 12:06 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    Hello,

    I am brand new to the whole open carry stuff... I have been reading the threads here. I also have my CPL. But can you guys shed some light on it? like a guide for dummy's?
    There are apps available, such as Legal Heat, that provide gun laws for all 50 states. (The nice thing about Legal Heat is that all the data reside on your device--no internet connection needed) Also, you could visit handgunlaw.us or carryconcealed.net, and copy relevant citations into your notepad app or whatever.
    Last edited by Eeyore; 09-02-2012 at 12:07 AM.
    Guns don't kill people. Drivers on cell phones do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You can carry openly. Dont carry in a post office, fed building, some casinos, and secure areas of airports and jails.
    I can open carry in a movie theater but not conceal? sounds crazy, i would think it would be the other way around, is there a law on this?

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    I can open carry in a movie theater but not conceal? sounds crazy, i would think it would be the other way around, is there a law on this?
    Yes. MCL 750.234d Notice the exemption for a CPL holder. The CPL statue states you CAN NOT concealed carry in those places, but .234d states you can carry, so the only way you can carry is OC.

    See MSP legal update 83. It in the stickies. http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf


    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.Sec. 234d.
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.
    (c) A court.
    (d) A theatre.
    (e) A sports arena.
    (f) A day care center.
    (g) A hospital.
    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.
    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.

    Last edited by Venator; 09-02-2012 at 12:27 AM.
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    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Re: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Cites, please.

    Forum Rule #5

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    Can someone help with this cite? So this well mannered poster can keep his underwear from bunching. I am mobile using a tablet so browsing searching is a bit difficult on the this device for me. I know it is a court ruling but don't have the link bookmarked on this device. Man no good deed goes unpunished -? This forum is really starting to - - - -!

    Edit to add - see MCL 750.539 this was a recent thread here on this subject. Happy now? Seig heil! I am starting to root for pat more and more...

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...recording-laws

    Links to court case affirming legallity of recording law enforcement.

    http://www.art-teez.org/pr/110406-Dr...s-Michigan.htm

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-02-2012 at 01:49 AM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Campaign Veteran Glock9mmOldStyle's Avatar
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    Re: Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Um. Let me make sure I understand this. Some guy you don't know, on the internet, hands you some legal info, and you believe it to the point of being thankful?

    Lemme show you how we do it around here. (next post)
    Uhhm lemme get this straight - you act as a mod here, but do so in such a crass manner? You can do better. I will cite everything to nausium, just for you in the future. There is more case law, and MCL on this, but I'm just too tired to dig it up.

    Carry on.

    We bow to you oh mighty one...

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    Last edited by Glock9mmOldStyle; 09-02-2012 at 01:55 AM.
    “A government that does not trust it’s law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms is itself unworthy of trust.” James Madison.

    “Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.” “The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.” George Washington

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Um. Let me make sure I understand this. Some guy you don't know, on the internet, hands you some legal info, and you believe it to the point of being thankful?

    Lemme show you how we do it around here. (next post)


    Cites, please.

    Forum Rule #5

    (5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules
    You could have been a little more professional with this reasonable request. If not, please surrender your moderator position to some one able to do so. That was a very poor attitude towards a new member and long time member trying to help.

    Your request: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(2lo...28-1931-LXXXII

    Michigan is a one party recording state. That is, as long as you are one of the involved parties there is no disclosure required so long as no other parts of this law are being violated. You do not need to be an involved party when it comes to LEO's.
    Last edited by ken243; 09-02-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    I can open carry in a movie theater but not conceal? sounds crazy . . .
    Until you think about it some more. Traditional societal norms, especially in America, regard visibly carried weapons as much less of a potential threat than concealed weapons. Visibly carried weapons provide notice to others that a person is armed. Concealed weapons do not. Visible carry is practiced virtually exclusively by honest, law-abiding people. Concealed carry is virtually the only way criminals carry.

    Summary of traditional societal norms: open carry is less a potential threat; concealed carry is more a potential threat. This is reflected in the laws of many states, including Michigan.

    I'm not saying I agree or disagree with those norms, just that their existence is historical and current fact and are factors to our current laws today.
    Last edited by DanM; 09-02-2012 at 08:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Until you think about it some more. Traditional societal norms, especially in America, regard visibly carried weapons as much less of a potential threat than concealed weapons. Visibly carried weapons provide notice to others that a person is armed. Concealed weapons do not. Visible carry is practiced virtually exclusively by honest, law-abiding people. Concealed carry is virtually the only way criminals carry.

    Summary of traditional societal norms: open carry is less a potential threat; concealed carry is more a potential threat. This is reflected in the laws of many states, including Michigan.

    I'm not saying I agree or disagree with those norms, just that their existence is historical and current fact and are factors to our current laws today.
    I disagree.

    People are scared of OC, often reflecting those fears in OC bans, but allowing CC.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock9mmOldStyle View Post
    Uhhm lemme get this straight - you act as a mod here, but do so in such a crass manner? You can do better. I will cite everything to nausium, just for you in the future. There is more case law, and MCL on this, but I'm just too tired to dig it up.

    Carry on.

    We bow to you oh mighty one...

    Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!
    You can take Citizen's response anyway you choose, however, I'd like to point out he has gone to great lengths to bring credibility and integrity to this forum by insisting on cites of law. It keeps the place from becoming a "bar stool law forum". You know, opinion backed by statutes and stuff.

    When people are asking how to protect themselves from an unaccountable, unpredictable and frequently violent arm of the government, it is in everyone's best interest that we're all on the same page, because when things get ugly, how things really are in the eyes of the law will trump what you think. And cites separate the two. If you're skin isn't thick enough to accept the message, do yourself a favor and ignore how the message is said, and listen to what is being said.

    He didn't say you were dumb. Or wrong. IMO, he pointed out that you fell short in your assumed responsibility to inform a new poster of life affecting information. And I thank him for that.
    Liberty is so strongly a part of human nature that it can be treated as a no-lose argument position.
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    From the cop’s perspective, the expression “law-abiding citizen” is a functional synonym for “Properly obedient slave".

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    And here I thought the only jack booted thugs we had to worry about wore a badge. Maybe we should just create a sticky citing every law known to man regarding open carry, concealed carry, recording, driving, walking your dog, and proper placement of a bird feeder. Then all bases will be covered for cites with one post. I would post the sarcastic parts in purple but that is a rules violation too.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by jruck View Post
    on the rear of my cpl ID it states:
    This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, stadium, bar or tavern licensed to serves liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or casino or as otherwise prohibited by law. Consult the statue for complete wording of pistol free zones.
    I just got my CPL on friday and it is slightly different wording.

    This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed piston as prohibited by law, including, but not limited to, the premises of any of the following: (See MCL 28.425o for the complete wording of the pistol free zones)
    • School or school property
    • Child care or day care center, child caring institution, or child placing agency
    • sports arena or stadium
    • bar/tavern where sale & consumption of liquor is the primary source of income
    • Church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship
    • Entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals
    • Hospital
    • Dormitory or classroom of community college, college, or university
    • Casino

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