Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

DanM · Sep 2, 2012

jruck said:
I can open carry in a movie theater but not conceal? sounds crazy . . .

Until you think about it some more. Traditional societal norms, especially in America, regard visibly carried weapons as much less of a potential threat than concealed weapons. Visibly carried weapons provide notice to others that a person is armed. Concealed weapons do not. Visible carry is practiced virtually exclusively by honest, law-abiding people. Concealed carry is virtually the only way criminals carry.

Summary of traditional societal norms: open carry is less a potential threat; concealed carry is more a potential threat. This is reflected in the laws of many states, including Michigan.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with those norms, just that their existence is historical and current fact and are factors to our current laws today.

stainless1911 · Sep 2, 2012

DanM said:
Until you think about it some more. Traditional societal norms, especially in America, regard visibly carried weapons as much less of a potential threat than concealed weapons. Visibly carried weapons provide notice to others that a person is armed. Concealed weapons do not. Visible carry is practiced virtually exclusively by honest, law-abiding people. Concealed carry is virtually the only way criminals carry.

Summary of traditional societal norms: open carry is less a potential threat; concealed carry is more a potential threat. This is reflected in the laws of many states, including Michigan.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with those norms, just that their existence is historical and current fact and are factors to our current laws today.

I disagree.

People are scared of OC, often reflecting those fears in OC bans, but allowing CC.

Fuller Malarkey · Sep 2, 2012

Glock9mmOldStyle said:
Uhhm lemme get this straight - you act as a mod here, but do so in such a crass manner? You can do better. I will cite everything to nausium, just for you in the future. There is more case law, and MCL on this, but I'm just too tired to dig it up.

Carry on.

We bow to you oh mighty one...

Giving up civil rights for security is a certain way to lose both!

You can take Citizen's response anyway you choose, however, I'd like to point out he has gone to great lengths to bring credibility and integrity to this forum by insisting on cites of law. It keeps the place from becoming a "bar stool law forum". You know, opinion backed by statutes and stuff.

When people are asking how to protect themselves from an unaccountable, unpredictable and frequently violent arm of the government, it is in everyone's best interest that we're all on the same page, because when things get ugly, how things really are in the eyes of the law will trump what you think. And cites separate the two. If you're skin isn't thick enough to accept the message, do yourself a favor and ignore how the message is said, and listen to what is being said.

He didn't say you were dumb. Or wrong. IMO, he pointed out that you fell short in your assumed responsibility to inform a new poster of life affecting information. And I thank him for that.

Ezerharden · Sep 2, 2012

And here I thought the only jack booted thugs we had to worry about wore a badge. :shocker: Maybe we should just create a sticky citing every law known to man regarding open carry, concealed carry, recording, driving, walking your dog, and proper placement of a bird feeder. Then all bases will be covered for cites with one post. I would post the sarcastic parts in purple but that is a rules violation too.

rampage537 · Sep 2, 2012

jruck said:
on the rear of my cpl ID it states:

This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in the state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed pistol at a school, on school property, day care center, child placing agency, sports arena, stadium, bar or tavern licensed to serves liquor, church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other place of worship, entertainment facility seating more than 2500 people, hospital, dormitory or classroom of a college or university or casino or as otherwise prohibited by law. Consult the statue for complete wording of pistol free zones.

Click to expand...

I just got my CPL on friday and it is slightly different wording.

This license allows the licensee to carry a pistol on or about his person anywhere in state, except a licensee shall not carry a concealed piston as prohibited by law, including, but not limited to, the premises of any of the following: (See MCL 28.425o for the complete wording of the pistol free zones)

School or school property

Child care or day care center, child caring institution, or child placing agency

sports arena or stadium

bar/tavern where sale & consumption of liquor is the primary source of income

Church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship

Entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals

Hospital

Dormitory or classroom of community college, college, or university

Casino

TheQ · Sep 2, 2012

Citizen said:
Cites, please.

Forum Rule #5

(5) CITE TO AUTHORITY: If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available,is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/misc.php?do=showrules

Actually, the way things work in Michigan, everything is legal unless it is illegal. So I'll ask YOU to cite me the law that says it's illegal.

I understand this isn't the way it was in Nazi Germany

davidmcbeth · Sep 2, 2012

Newbie should know that the best thing to say to a cop is NOTHING ... anything you say will not be remembered correctly by a cop & be used to hang you in court.

Best to "teach" the cop in a court of law...not at the side of a road.

choover · Sep 2, 2012

Citizen said:
Um. Let me make sure I understand this. Some guy you don't know, on the internet, hands you some legal info, and you believe it to the point of being thankful?

Lemme show you how we do it around here. (next post)

*** **** **** citizen ..... I think we in michigan know how we do it around here better than you. People are free to post this information and there are cites to authority on all of the topics posted on this thread, all the OP has to do is search our forums a small bit and he will find the information cited to authority over, and over, and over again.

--Moderator Note--

With all due respect, Michigan does not set the standard(s) for OCDO.

Also insult edited/deleted.

jruck · Sep 2, 2012

Calm down guys, we are all on the same team... ones trying to win from our rights.

Citizen · Sep 2, 2012

Good heavens, I had no idea my comment to the OPer would be taken that way. I can now see how it could be taken that way. I apologize. Sincerely. I was more in a playful mood, but of course the internet does not convey tone of voice.

For the whiners who complain about cite demands, tough. Step it up a notch. If a half-brained knucklehead like me can keep my mouth shut unless I know the cite, so can everybody else. That is literally all it takes. "Oh, damn, I can't remember the cite. Oh, well. Guess I'll keep my mouth shut." How hard is that? Or, just do like I do and keep links to the cites in your favorites folder. Hell, half the time I can't remember which case was the correct cite until I look it up myself. "Dammit, I know one of these cases covers that point. Was it Ullman, Reiner, Miranda? Spit! I have to skim all these to find those two sentences." If I can do it, so can others. The only reason I have any facility at it is because I've done it, meaning practice creates the skill.

Grapeshot · Sep 2, 2012

Ezerharden said:
And here I thought the only jack booted thugs we had to worry about wore a badge. :shocker: Maybe we should just create a sticky citing every law known to man regarding open carry, concealed carry, recording, driving, walking your dog, and proper placement of a bird feeder. Then all bases will be covered for cites with one post. I would post the sarcastic parts in purple but that is a rules violation too.

There is a forum rule that encourages cites whenever possible - it is for the benefit of all, particularly for the newest amongst us. Citizen did no more than is promoted by the administration - that is to be self-moderating and promoting that others do likewise - requesting cites is very much a part of that. Keep OCDO strong.

Can we get back on topic now, please.

kubel · Sep 2, 2012

Citizen said:
For the whiners who complain about cite demands, tough.

Your cite demand is invalid and is also a logical fallacy.

1) The rule says, "If you state a rule of law...". There was no rule of law stated by Glock9mmOldStyle.

2) Argumentum ad ignorantiam. You are attempting to have someone prove something is legal- that's not the way it works with law. If someone says, for instance, they keep their porch light on at night, one can't use rule 5 to try to compel them to find a law that say it's legal. Laws don't make things legal, they make things illegal. In a free society, everything is legal unless there is a law to the contrary. Now if I were to say "It's illegal to keep your porch light on at night", then it would be appropriate to request a cite per rule 5.

In my opinion, Glock9mmOldStyle is being consistent with the rules. Rules aside, the burden of proof would still not be on Glock9mmOldStyle. It would be on whoever suggests recording a police officer is *illegal*. That person would be implying there is a law, and thus would qualify for rule 5 enforcement.

DrTodd · Sep 3, 2012

Instead of going off on Citizen, why don't posters provide a citation? I think it is because people are lazy, but with all of the energy put into fighting, why not do a little research and provide something that at least could be used to support statements regarding what is assumed to be legal behavior. This issue is not only in this thread, it is becoming more common for people to forgo providing citations for what they deem legal.
Here is a link that provides a .pdf file which explains the law in Michigan pretty well...there were many others that I found in the 5 minutes I took on my phone to find it...

http://www.butzel.com/files/Publica...1d7-4f36-87a9-2509ee6d7d32/120328artMEDIA.pdf

stainless1911 · Sep 3, 2012

Thanks. I bookmarked that for reading later, its too late tonight.

Spot on post BTW.

I think the site will be fine, there are lots of people interested in turning it in the right direction.

stainless1911 · Sep 3, 2012

Ezerharden · Sep 3, 2012

Note to Moderators. Please define "Off Tropic" as a reason to delete a post. I could find nothing in the rules about being "Off Tropic" that so many posts here were deleted for. Thank you.

Ezerharden · Sep 3, 2012

choover said:
--Moderator Note--

With all due respect, Michigan does not set the standard(s) for OCDO.

Then please inform us who does, Virginia?

Grapeshot · Sep 3, 2012

Ezerharden said:
Note to Moderators. Please define "Off Tropic" as a reason to delete a post. I could find nothing in the rules about being "Off Tropic" that so many posts here were deleted for. Thank you.

Posts not directly related to/responding to the OP, especially those that tend to highjack with reference to personalities rather than facts. Clear enough?

Ezerharden said:
Then please inform us who does, Virginia?

Playing the "state card" still I see, which btw is not recognized. Nevertheless Yes, to at least some degree as that is where much of the administration of this site is located.

Further such infelicitous responses will also be edited/deleted.

WilDChilD · Sep 3, 2012

Grapeshot; said:
--Moderator Note--

With all due respect, Michigan does not set the standard(s) for OCDO.

Also insult edited/deleted.

But if we all went to the MOC forum this site sure would lose a lot of views.

Grapeshot · Sep 3, 2012

WilDChilD said:
But if we all went to the MOC forum this site sure would lose a lot of views.

Surely you do not suggest that as an argument for the administration to relinquish their right of ownership and thereby to control both content and standards.

OCDO has always listened to and considered responsible suggestions/input from member/participants. I see no change in this.

Text to show police while open carrying, etc.

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