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Thread: Motorcycles

  1. #1
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    Motorcycles

    So what is the consensus? I know the RCW says that to carry loaded IN a vehicle you need the CPL. For those that ride and those that have studied the laws or had encounters: is a CPL required to OC loaded ON a motorcycle?

    I tried a search and came up empty. May have been my search method but I didn't spot anything right away that helped.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Get and Carry a CPL, answer all questions about this topic and takes any misunderstanding is a motorcycle a vehicle?.....
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Here is a couple threads:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...nd-Motorcycles


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ght=motorcycle


    It's not clear if a CPL is required or not (1 word hang up). To be safe, you should have a CPL. It's a personal choice on if you want to risk being a testcase...

    Personally, the way I read it, your not in a vehicle but that's just my personal opinion.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 09-02-2012 at 11:50 AM.
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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Yes, a motorcycle is a vehicle.
    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/ I believe I searched for [vehicle defined].

    RCW 46.04.330 Motorcycle.
    "Motorcycle" means a motor vehicle designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the ground, on which the driver:

    (1) Rides on a seat or saddle and the motor vehicle is designed to be steered with a handlebar; or

    (2) Rides on a seat in a partially or completely enclosed seating area that is equipped with safety belts and the motor vehicle is designed to be steered with a steering wheel.


    RCW 46.04.670 Vehicle.
    "Vehicle" includes every device capable of being moved upon a public highway and in, upon, or by which any persons or property is or may be transported or drawn upon a public highway, including bicycles.

    ETA: sorry, I see I misunderstood the question slightly. IMO, going by the definition of vehicle, it doesn't matter whether you're actually in a vehicle, or only on it.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 09-02-2012 at 12:01 PM.

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    Regular Member Rob G's Avatar
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    Until recently, I have always carried year round on my bike with a shoulder holster, with my gun out of view, because I didn't have a comfortable belt holster.

    Now that I have one that works great with me and my bucket seat, I ride OC. To date, no issues whatsoever and have been seen by numerous LEO's around the state. I also know and have seen other bikers who also OC on their bikes and they have reported no issues as well.

    I do have a CPL so either way, I'm legal. It's only $55 or so. Cheap insurance as I see it.

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    How many people ride bicycles while carrying? Do you carry your cpl? A bicycle is considered a vehicle now
    I feel the legislative intent was not to require a cpl for all vehicles but rather to address the issue of being inside a vehicle which since your inside something it could arguably makes your carry partially concealed from the out side. This is not the case if you ride on it.

    Someone was looking at getting an AGO, any update on this?
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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    pick up truck?

    This thread brought this thought........ What about the bed of a pick up truck? It is not illegal in Washington to do this, but would you need a CPL as in the motorcycle problem. So many variables, it is a tricky world.
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    My OPINION (IANAL) is that if your hip is obscured from view during normal driving from outside the vehicle then you need a CPL. The law does say INSIDE a vehicle, so that would include inside a truck bed.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    This thread brought this thought........ What about the bed of a pick up truck? It is not illegal in Washington to do this, but would you need a CPL as in the motorcycle problem. So many variables, it is a tricky world.
    Not all that tricky. If riding in the bed of a pickup truck removed the need for a CPL for loaded carry, then so would riding in the cargo area of a van, the passenger area of a bus, the back seat of a car or in a motorcycle sidecar.

    The law prohibits loaded carry in a vehicle without a CPL (or other exemption). It doesn't specify only drivers.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Not all that tricky. If riding in the bed of a pickup truck removed the need for a CPL for loaded carry, then so would riding in the cargo area of a van, the passenger area of a bus, the back seat of a car or in a motorcycle sidecar.

    The law prohibits loaded carry in a vehicle without a CPL (or other exemption). It doesn't specify only drivers.
    The sarge was referring to being inside. All your examples are enclosed, and not open as his was.

    I feel the intent of the law was the concealing effect of being inside a vehicle. I don't test it thought I have my CPL in my bike bag when I OC while on the motorcycle.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    The sarge was referring to being inside. All your examples are enclosed, and not open as his was.

    I feel the intent of the law was the concealing effect of being inside a vehicle. I don't test it thought I have my CPL in my bike bag when I OC while on the motorcycle.
    Yes, but if you sit down in the bed of a pickup your top half third may be exposed but the bottom two thirds would be hidden, especially if it's a large truck or high up. The point of the law is that when IN a vehicle your openly carried firearm is now concealed from public view. Being inside the bed of a truck is still INSIDE. If you rode on the roof, then you wouldn't be inside, but then again you wouldn't be safe, lol. But when ON a motorcycle your openly carried sidearm is now in plain view. And the law is written INSIDE and doesn't include ON. You don't ride INSIDE a motorcycle. Though you would with a side car. I have my CPL so it's no biggie, but not everyone has one and there are many riders who may want to carry.

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    A few months ago I e-mailed the AG about this because it was being discussed a lot and I had plans of getting a motorcycle. Well, I did get a response, but it was less than helpful. I actually cleared it out of my e-mail one day because it didn't really show one way or the other. I described the question as best I could. I mentioned the problem with "On" and "In". I mentioned "Open Carry" rather than "Concealed Carry". Well, their answer only regarding concealed carry since they let me know that Concealing on a motorcycle requires a CPL. Not really helpful to this argument, but maybe someone else can e-mail them with a more articulate, detailed question so that they will answer the actual question asked rather than stating what we all already know...
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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    maybe someone else can e-mail them with a more articulate, detailed question so that they will answer the actual question
    To get any real response we need to have a Representative email them the question.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

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    well,,,

    you need a license to ride on the street,,,
    but they cant stop you just to check that you have one.

    you need an endorcement to ride a motorcycle,,,
    but they cant stop you just to check that you have one.

    you need a CPL to carry a concealled pistol,,,
    but they cant stop you just to see if you are carrying a pistol, then demand your CPL.

    you need a CPL to carry loaded "In" a vehicle,,,
    but you arent "in" a vehicle.

    if you ride by,,, and they see your open carried side arm,,,
    how can they conclude that your side arm is concealled?

    Also when I ride my motorcycle I am covered by 9.41.060 (8),
    in my mind, it is just like going for a ride on my iron horse!
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Well in WA state AGOs are only issued really at the request prosecuting attorneys or state elected officials.

    The AG cannot issue an opinion for private citizens
    http://www.atg.wa.gov/AGOOpinions/default.aspx

    However, I wonder if the Kitsap PA would request an AGO if a law enforcement official requested one, and if yes I think we can always email Chief Townsend from Port Orchard and see if he would send a request up the chain, since he, along with the PO mayor, seem to be at least OC friendly.

    just a thought
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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    To get any real response we need to have a Representative email them the question.
    The last time I tried to ask the AG a question, I got a form letter back stating they only work for the people, and therefore would not answer my question.

    Apparently the irony escaped them.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    The last time I tried to ask the AG a question, I got a form letter back stating they only work for the people, and therefore would not answer my question.

    Apparently the irony escaped them.
    That's why you elect Representatives. That, in itself, is a good reason to be more cautious when voting for one.

    Yes, the AG works for the people----through their elected Representatives. Any other way would lead to total gridlock in the office and nobody's interests would be served.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sirpuma View Post
    Yes, but if you sit down in the bed of a pickup your top half third may be exposed but the bottom two thirds would be hidden, especially if it's a large truck or high up. The point of the law is that when IN a vehicle your openly carried firearm is now concealed from public view. Being inside the bed of a truck is still INSIDE. If you rode on the roof, then you wouldn't be inside, but then again you wouldn't be safe, lol. But when ON a motorcycle your openly carried sidearm is now in plain view. And the law is written INSIDE and doesn't include ON. You don't ride INSIDE a motorcycle. Though you would with a side car. I have my CPL so it's no biggie, but not everyone has one and there are many riders who may want to carry.
    Not the clarification I was making . Never referred to it as Inside the bed of a truck myself, unless there's a canopy or enclosure, I do say in the bed of the truck. But do understand what you are saying.

    But by that logic you would need one to sit with strong side to the wall in a booth at a restaurant because then it would be concealed from view. I wouldn't put it past some in the "justice" system to try to construe it that way either.
    Last edited by sudden valley gunner; 09-04-2012 at 09:46 AM.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    But by that logic you would need one to sit with strong side to the wall in a booth at a restaurant because then it would be concealed from view. I wouldn't put it past some in the "justice" system to try to construe it that way either.
    Except that the booth isn't a vehicle.

  20. #20
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    you folks that wrote letters.... PM me a copy of what you are asking and let me see what I can do. I have a way in but can't use it too much.

    Bill

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    you folks that wrote letters.... PM me a copy of what you are asking and let me see what I can do. I have a way in but can't use it too much.

    Bill
    Ill write up a draft and send it over.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    It may be useful to think about how RCW 77 is written as concerns carry of a loaded long gun...it specifically states "...in or on..."

    RCW 9.41 only says "in"???? Eh?
    Last edited by hermannr; 09-04-2012 at 08:55 PM.

  23. #23
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    It may be useful to think about how RCW 77 is written as concerns carry of a loaded long gun...it specifically states "...in or on..."

    RCW 9.41 only says "in"???? Eh?
    I was going to include that in my draft but I found it actually says something of the sort of: in any vehicle or upon any off road vehicle

    While it is still related, it seems to not directly relate as well as I wanted. I would hope this is one of the things the AG would look for. As such, I left it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    you folks that wrote letters.... PM me a copy of what you are asking and let me see what I can do. I have a way in but can't use it too much.

    Bill
    Here is my draft of what I would send. Short, Sweet, To the point.

    Document [PDF]
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 09-04-2012 at 09:39 PM.
    I Am Not A Lawyer, verify all facts presented independently.

    It's called the "American Dream" because you have to be asleep to believe it. - George Carlin

    I carry a spare tire, in case I have a flat. I carry life insurance, in case I die. I carry a gun, in case I need it.

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    This leads me to ask a similar question. How visable does a gun need to be to not be "concealed?" I often wear a jacket that covers some of my revolver's grip but some of the frame and the holster is visable. I have a holster I wear on occasions that's an old military style that has a large flap that covers almost the entire side arm with just the butt sticking out.

    This is somewhat on topic with this thread because both conditions exist due to my motorcycle riding. I'm not overly concered about myself being in trouble as I keep my CPL with me but it would be nice to know.
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  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Levi I do not think you will find a definitive answer on how much is concealed but my guess would be if it can be recognized as a handgun it is not concealed.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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