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Thread: Open carry in Anderson, met two LEO's in one 24-hour period.

  1. #1
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    Open carry in Anderson, two good encounters spoiled by two bad ones.

    We are currently moving and since I've been spending a lot of time at storage and at the other house late at night and alone, I've been carrying my LC9 with me. I usually carry it anyway, I just made it a point this time. On Friday I picked my son up from daycare and was going to take him to the library to keep him out of my wife's way while she got some boxes packed. I put my son on my shoulders and started to walk into the doors. I have my LC9 in a waistband holster and I carry it up front. Immediately on the other side of the door was an APD officer. When the door opened he looked down, looked at me, and asked if I had my permit. I produced the permit for him and he asked if the address is correct, I said yes. I expected him to ask for my ID (I wasn't going to give it to him) but he didn't. That actually surprised me a lot. He handed my permit back and and said he would like it if I would conceal it while I was in the library so it doesn't 'freak people out.' I didn't have the chance to tell him I wasn't going to conceal it because he immeadiatly said the library closes in 10 minutes. I forgot they close early on Friday so I just told him that I forgot about that and I was going to just leave. I was really surprised at how professional he was about it and that he didn't keep harassing me or say something like the gun wasn't allowed in the library.

    Later that night we were moving some stuff on the trailer and a friend of mine was helping me. We stopped at the gas station to get drinks and fuel. There was a Sheriff parked in the lot and he was standing in the store talking to the clerk. I looked at my friend and said, 'this probably isn't going to go well.' We went in and he noticed the gun right away but didn't say anything. I nodded and said 'morning' to both of them and walked away from them towards the candy. Then I walked past the Sheriff again to get my drink. When I went up to the counter to pay for the stuff the Sheriff asked me if that was a LC9 I was carrying. I said yes and he asked me to take it out so he could see it. I said, 'yeah that sounds like a good idea, pull a gun out with a cop standing next to me.' He got a chuckle out of that and I took it out to show it to him. We ended up having a conversation for 10 minutes about guns and the ammo we like to shoot from them. He never asked for my permit or ID.

    Looking back I should have gotten their names and put in a call to inform their supervisors about how good of a job they did. If I see them again I will make sure to do that.

    After reading some stories here and watching some videos on You Tube I expected to get beaten up or something.
    Last edited by bung; 09-04-2012 at 06:09 PM.

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    Sounds like you handled it pretty well. Nice job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    Sounds like you handled it pretty well. Nice job.
    Isn't a permit a form of ID?

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    I would say a permit isn't a form of ID or at least is only half a form of ID since there is no picture on it. I could carry anyone's permit or if it got stolen, anyone could use it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    I would say a permit isn't a form of ID or at least is only half a form of ID since there is no picture on it. I could carry anyone's permit or if it got stolen, anyone could use it.
    I would disagree ... your SS card is an ID

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    Founder's Club Member thebigsd's Avatar
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    Open carry in Anderson, met two LEO's in one 24-hour period.

    Besides the whole taking the gun out of the holster thing, I'd say you did well. I never take my gun out of the holster unless I intend to store it or use it.
    "When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away."

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    Quote Originally Posted by thebigsd View Post
    Besides the whole taking the gun out of the holster thing, I'd say you did well. I never take my gun out of the holster unless I intend to store it or use it.
    Ah yes good advice I can think of a few bad things that could come from unholstering and not any good things.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    I would say a permit isn't a form of ID or at least is only half a form of ID since there is no picture on it. I could carry anyone's permit or if it got stolen, anyone could use it.
    Oh, here in Connecticut the permit has a pic, name and DOB. So I guess that's why I thought it would be ID. I still think that if you hand an official document/ID to a PO ID it's you that would be ID.

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    So I just took my wife to Community Hospital in Anderson to get some blood work done. On the way out, an Indiana Sheriff and a plain clothes cop were waiting at the exit. They asked me to step outside (I was on my out the door) and then the plain cop said, "Don't you know that isn't concealed?", referring to my holstered LC9 in my waistband. I said, "Yes, I carry open and concealed weapons aren't allowed at the hospital." Then I pointed towards the sticker on the door with a gun and a 'no' sign on it with the words "NO CONCEALED GUNS' written on it. They then asked for my concealed carry permit. I told them it isn't a concealed permit, it is a license to carry a handgun. I produced the permit and they discussed weather or not it should have my finger print on it. I told them it was only a few months old and that I had my prints done electronically and that my permit looks like the example on the ISP website. The sheriff then asked me for my ID. I told him I would rather not give it to him. He said I was required to. I then told him that would constitute a search and the 4th amendment says I don't have to give my ID unless they have reasonable suspicion that I committed a crime. The city cop said they had reasonable suspicion since I was carrying a gun. I asked 'of what' and then my wife told me to just give them my ID. She then took the keys to the car and left to go make an appointment in the other building. They said they had to make sure that license was mine and I told them that Indiana Code says that I only have to present my license to carry and says nothing about giving my ID. I asked if I was being detained, they said no, then Sheriff then says in a threatening manner, "I won't ask for your ID again." I asked the city cop if he was APD, he said no that he worked for Lenard (I can't find this city or county) and I asked him if he was even in his jurisdiction which he replied that it doesn't matter, he has arrest powers no matter where he is. Too keep my wife happy I gave them my ID, although I was going to let them arrest me because a fiasco is the only way guys like this learn what the law really is. After they look at my ID they give both items back. I ask them both if they have a card. The Sheriff says that I don't need his card. I tell him that I want to file a complaint and he produces a card. The city cop says he doesn't have cards. I ask for his name and badge number, he rattles them off quickly and I tell him that I would like to write that down and asked if he had a pen. He said that I should have thought of that. So, I hurry to the car and find a pen and write down the info he gave me.

    I call the Sheriffs office in Anderson and was told that I couldn't file a complaint about their reserve officer because he wasn't working for the department at the time. I still have no ideal who to call about the other guy since I can't find any information about a Lenord city or county. I do have his last name and badge number, assuming they are right. I went to complain to the Community security supervisor and they Sheriff came out. He sat down next to me with his form and I said, "Is your supervisor here?", he said no. I then said, "Don't you think it would be a conflict of interest for you to take this complaint?" He said, "I guess so." I asked for the supervisors name and number. I left a voice mail for him, we'll see what happens if I get a call back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    So I just took my wife to Community Hospital in Anderson to get some blood work done. On the way out, an Indiana Sheriff and a plain clothes cop were waiting at the exit. They asked me to step outside (I was on my out the door) and then the plain cop said, "Don't you know that isn't concealed?", referring to my holstered LC9 in my waistband. I said, "Yes, I carry open and concealed weapons aren't allowed at the hospital." Then I pointed towards the sticker on the door with a gun and a 'no' sign on it with the words "NO CONCEALED GUNS' written on it. They then asked for my concealed carry permit. I told them it isn't a concealed permit, it is a license to carry a handgun. I produced the permit and they discussed weather or not it should have my finger print on it. I told them it was only a few months old and that I had my prints done electronically and that my permit looks like the example on the ISP website. The sheriff then asked me for my ID. I told him I would rather not give it to him. He said I was required to. I then told him that would constitute a search and the 4th amendment says I don't have to give my ID unless they have reasonable suspicion that I committed a crime. The city cop said they had reasonable suspicion since I was carrying a gun. I asked 'of what' and then my wife told me to just give them my ID. She then took the keys to the car and left to go make an appointment in the other building. They said they had to make sure that license was mine and I told them that Indiana Code says that I only have to present my license to carry and says nothing about giving my ID. I asked if I was being detained, they said no, then Sheriff then says in a threatening manner, "I won't ask for your ID again." I asked the city cop if he was APD, he said no that he worked for Lenard (I can't find this city or county) and I asked him if he was even in his jurisdiction which he replied that it doesn't matter, he has arrest powers no matter where he is. Too keep my wife happy I gave them my ID, although I was going to let them arrest me because a fiasco is the only way guys like this learn what the law really is. After they look at my ID they give both items back. I ask them both if they have a card. The Sheriff says that I don't need his card. I tell him that I want to file a complaint and he produces a card. The city cop says he doesn't have cards. I ask for his name and badge number, he rattles them off quickly and I tell him that I would like to write that down and asked if he had a pen. He said that I should have thought of that. So, I hurry to the car and find a pen and write down the info he gave me.

    I call the Sheriffs office in Anderson and was told that I couldn't file a complaint about their reserve officer because he wasn't working for the department at the time. I still have no ideal who to call about the other guy since I can't find any information about a Lenord city or county. I do have his last name and badge number, assuming they are right. I went to complain to the Community security supervisor and they Sheriff came out. He sat down next to me with his form and I said, "Is your supervisor here?", he said no. I then said, "Don't you think it would be a conflict of interest for you to take this complaint?" He said, "I guess so." I asked for the supervisors name and number. I left a voice mail for him, we'll see what happens if I get a call back.
    Why wait for a phone call? Go to their HQ and file a complaint with a Supervisor.

  11. #11
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    According to the lawyer I just talked to (I have pre-paid services) they were within rights to ask for my ID since I was carrying a gun even though I presented a valid carry permit. He did say there was no reason for the one guy to be unprofessional and he gave me a number for a senator who is pro-2nd to talk to about this. I was also informed that there was no recent Indiana case law that would help me or support my idea that I don't have to identify myself when I present a valid carry license.

    I did get a call from the supervisor at Community, of course he is a cop to, and he didn't seem concerned at all that his guys didn't know you couldn't have a concealed weapon at the hospital and he also said they were within rights to ask for my ID.
    Last edited by bung; 09-05-2012 at 12:19 PM.

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    You have had a interesting couple weeks! Whats this finger print thing? I dont, nor have heard, of a print being on the LTCH. Keep us updated. I hope to go to Anderson in a few months to gamble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    According to the lawyer I just talked to (I have pre-paid services) they were within rights to ask for my ID since I was carrying a gun even though I presented a valid carry permit. He did say there was no reason for the one guy to be unprofessional and he gave me a number for a senator who is pro-2nd to talk to about this. I was also informed that there was no recent Indiana case law that would help me or support my idea that I don't have to identify myself when I present a valid carry license.

    I did get a call from the supervisor at Community, of course he is a cop to, and he didn't seem concerned at all that his guys didn't know you couldn't have a concealed weapon at the hospital and he also said they were within rights to ask for my ID.
    Well, technically your lawyer is right, they do have the right* to ask you for identification. The question that should be asked is "Do they have the right, based solely upon sight of a legally carried pistol, the authority do demand identification?" I readily admit that for Indiana I don't have a quick answer, but I do have a certain curious nature.

    * They have the right to ask you to identify yourself, they have the right to ask you to contribute to the Policeman's Ball, they have the right to ask you if you want to come home and play Naked Twister with them. Rights are not interchangeable with authorities.

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    If you already gave them your name and address (it's on your LTCH) then you have identified yourself. I don't think your driver's license is necessary since you weren't driving.


    IIRC, all that is required is that you identify yourself if they have RAS. Remember "R" stands for "reasonable." Is it reasonable to suspect that a guy open carrying has stolen someone else's LTCH and is carrying illegally? Sounds like a stretch to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    ... I asked if I was being detained, they said no, then Sheriff then says in a threatening manner, "I won't ask for your ID again."
    "Excellent. I'd like my LTCH back now so I can leave..."

    I wouldn't stick around to chat if I wasn't being detained.

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    I thought about just leaving when he said he wasn't detaining me, but I doubt either of them really knows what 'detains' means and unless you want to pay for the extra hours outside of my pre-pay lawyer, I don't want to fight these idiots in court. Even my own lawyer thinks that police aren't doing anything illegal if they just randomly stop you and ask for ID without any cause at all, detained or otherwise. I wonder if he is fresh out of law school.....

    Since I didn't have the means to video or audio record them, it would be their word against mine if I tried to leave when they said I wasn't detained and got tazed with them saying I was running away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    ...Even my own lawyer thinks that police aren't doing anything illegal if they just randomly stop you and ask for ID without any cause at all, detained or otherwise. I wonder if he is fresh out of law school...
    I don't know whether your lawyer is new or not, but he's correct IF you are not being detained. They can ASK anything they like as long as you are free to go. What LEO's don't have the right to do is detain you without RAS.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-08-2012 at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung
    According to the lawyer I just talked to they were within rights to ask for my ID since I was carrying a gun
    no recent Indiana case law that would help me or support my idea that I don't have to identify myself when I present a valid carry license.
    Even my own lawyer thinks that police aren't doing anything illegal if they just randomly stop you and ask for ID without any cause at all
    As others have pointed out, they can ask anything they want.
    But it sounds like they were demanding & coercing, & that's illegal.
    You don't need "recent IN case law", since there's SCOTUS case law.


    Here are some things to print & give to your lawyer.

    "The Claim and exercise of a Constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
    Miller v. U.S.

    The Third Circuit found that an individual’s lawful possession of a firearm in a crowded place did not justify a search or seizure.
    United States v. Ubiles

    The Tenth Circuit found that an investigatory detention initiated by an officer after he discovered that the defendant lawfully possessed a loaded firearm lacked sufficient basis because the firearm alone did not create a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
    United States v. King

    "Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
    Delaware v. Prouse
    [So obviously stopping someone solely to check for a carry license is also an unreasonable search.]

    "The mere presence of firearms does not create exigent circumstances."
    Wisconsin v. Kiekhefer

    "Mr. St. John’s lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
    St. John v. McColley

    "Police conduct does not need to be egregious or outrageous in order to be coercive. Subtle pressures are considered to be coercive if they exceed the defendant’s ability to resist. Pressures that are not coercive in one set of circumstances may be coercive in another set of circumstances."
    Wisconsin v. Hoppe


    *****


    42USC1983 Civil action for deprivation of rights
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress...

    42USC1985 Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights
    (which is applicable to anyone but is still only a civil action)
    (3) Depriving persons of rights or privileges
    If two or more persons in any State ... conspire ... for the purpose of depriving, either directly or indirectly, any person ... of equal privileges and immunities under the laws
    ...
    in any case of conspiracy set forth in this section, if one or more persons engaged therein do, or cause to be done, any act in furtherance of the object of such conspiracy, whereby another is ... deprived of having and exercising any right or privilege of a citizen of the United States, the party so injured or deprived may have an action for the recovery of damages occasioned by such injury or deprivation, against any one or more of the conspirators.

    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
    ...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both...
    Last edited by MKEgal; 09-15-2012 at 10:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    I don't know whether your lawyer is new or not, but he's correct IF you are not being detained. They can ASK anything they like as long as you are free to go. What LEO's don't have the right to do is detain you without RAS.
    I don't think I'm properly conveying what the lawyer said. According to him, not only was it reasonable for the cops to ask for my ID, it would be unreasonable for me not to provide ID and that I should provide it. Basically, if they had arrested me, this guy wouldn't think I had a case or defense.

    MKEgal, thank you for the information.

    "Mr. St. John’s lawful possession of a loaded firearm in a crowded place could not, by itself, create a reasonable suspicion sufficient to justify an investigatory detention."
    St. John v. McColley
    Stopping a car for no other reason than to check the license and registration was unreasonable under the 4th amendment."
    Delaware v. Prouse
    So obviously stopping someone solely to check for a carry license is also an unreasonable search.
    So the line in the code that says we have to present the LTCH upon demand is unconstitutional?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bung View Post
    I don't think I'm properly conveying what the lawyer said. According to him, not only was it reasonable for the cops to ask for my ID, it would be unreasonable for me not to provide ID and that I should provide it. Basically, if they had arrested me, this guy wouldn't think I had a case or defense.


    That lawyer does not appear to be familiar with Indiana law. Unless you were detained for a suspected infraction or ordinance violation, the LEO has no authority to obtain your ID and you have no obligation to provide it.

    IC 34-28-5-3
    Detention
    Sec. 3. Whenever a law enforcement officer believes in good faith that a person has committed an infraction or ordinance violation, the law enforcement officer may detain that person for a time sufficient to:
    (1) inform the person of the allegation;
    (2) obtain the person's:
    (A) name, address, and date of birth; or
    (B) driver's license, if in the person's possession; and
    (3) allow the person to execute a notice to appear.
    As added by P.L.1-1998, SEC.24.

    IC 34-28-5-3.5
    Refusal to identify self
    Sec. 3.5. A person who knowingly or intentionally refuses to provide either the person's:
    (1) name, address, and date of birth; or
    (2) driver's license, if in the person's possession;
    to a law enforcement officer who has stopped the person for an infraction or ordinance violation commits a Class C misdemeanor.



    So the line in the code that says we have to present the LTCH upon demand is unconstitutional?

    That code, IC 35-47-2-24 (a leftover from the the days when one had to be in possession of their license to carry), does not specifically state that you must present the LTCH upon demand.
    It may be easier to present it if asked, but that is your choice.

    And yes, I believe that the requirement for an LTCH is unconstitutional so any further requirement to prove that I have one is of the same substance. Unfortunately, the courts still have this one wrong.

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    I agree, since I wasn't waving it around, playing with it, or threatening people with it, the issue of my LTCH should never come up, but we live in a country of sheep....

    I remember the officer saying (when I said I didn't have to present my ID along with my LTCH) that the prosecutor would agree with the officer. I thought about calling him, but being a prosecutor, you can't trust the answer given.

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    From reading your story and what not, I find the officers performance VERY poor. The officer who was out of his jurisdiction and the statement he made, I would have told that officer he was being very unprofessional and aggressive with being a LEO. Unless that officer was authorized to act out of his jurisdiction with the other agency then so be it. But considering he answered in a VERY rude manner and a "I don't care attitude" I would be hoping that officer gets put off duty and given lessons.
    Last edited by DWCook; 09-27-2012 at 06:24 AM.
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    It appears to me that this prepaid lawyer is another case of wasted money. There are many many so called prepaid lawyers that advertise what fabulous service they will give but when you call they say sorry but we can't help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DWCook View Post
    From reading your story and what not, I find the officers performance VERY poor. The officer who was out of his jurisdiction and the statement he made, I would have told that officer he was being very unprofessional and aggressive with being a LEO. Unless that officer was authorized to act out of his jurisdiction with the other agency then so be it. But considering he answered in a VERY rude manner and a "I don't care attitude" I would be hoping that officer gets put off duty and given lessons.
    That's not the way police jurisdiction works in Indiana.

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