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Thread: Why do you Open Carry?

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Why do you Open Carry?

    Why do you Open Carry?

    by Phillip Hofmeister
    President of Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
    Sept. 2, 2012

    There has been something eating at me for a while: a certain minority who seems to have a much more than proportionate amount of attention drawn to them while they are carrying. I have to ask myself, why do the people in this small minority get so much attention? I'm left to think about one possible reason: they are seeking the attention.

    First, I agree that if it is legal, every open carrier should carry a voice recorder with them. I prefer ones attached to a smart phone that upload the video in real time to the Internet in a way they cannot be deleted from the Internet via the phone. You just never know when you'll have an encounter that it'll be worth while documenting evidence. I also think people should have a recorder "always running" (maybe one that doesn't live link to the Internet -- that would drain a battery quickly!) so they can have documentation of what happened before they turned their live-upload recorder on. Some would suggest that if you carry a recording device while open carrying, you're (100%, no exception) just looking for confrontation. I reject that suggestion entirely. In fact, I think the vast majority of people who are carrying recording devices are just going about their daily lives, no seeking any confrontation. Now back to my original question: why do you open carry?

    Here are a few reasons people might carry openly:

    1. Self-defense. They believe there is a tactical advantage to open carry and that amongst those advantages are: a visual deterrent and a faster draw. Great! Carry on and defend yourself and those you love, I am with you!

    2. Activism/Political Statement. These people believe that a "right not exercised is a right lost". They also believe that because they carry openly they have opportunities to talk to others (when approached) in a calm, friendly, professional way about why they carry a gun. These conversations help others better understand their rights and promote the second amendment in a positive way. Ryan Ransom, Treasurer and SW Coordinator of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. has performed an experiment with a friend who asked him why he open carries. They were hanging out together on that day. Ryan said for the first half of the day he will conceal carry and at noon he will start open carrying. Their morning went by completely uneventful. No one talked to them other than small talk pleasantries in passing. After noon, when Ryan started to carry openly, there were occasions where people approached Ryan and asked about his gun, why he carries, and Ryan gave them information about their rights and why they should consider carrying to protect themselves and those they love. These such encounters are almost entirely positive with very few exception.

    3. You are carrying because you are seeking attention (often negative) from law enforcement officer (LEO) and/or private persons. Some things that may contribute to the type of encounters you get are: how you dress, what you carry, how you present yourself, your general attitude when approached. I'm not suggesting you should be submissive and forfeit any of your rights when approached by a LEO. That being said, if when you talk to a person (LEO or otherwise) you seem to have a chip on your shoulder -- it's going to drastically shape the nature of the encounter! Last night I went walking downtown Lansing while Openly Carrying. I like to get out and walk and sometime I like to go downtown to see how the night life is. Despite the fact of many inebriated persons, I had not one negative encounter. Several people did notice I was carrying and had pleasant conversations with me. Most were curious and they left their encounter with me more educated about Open Carry than when they started it -- much like Ryan's experiences in #2 above. Not a single negative encounter -- despite a very large presence of law enforcement (as you would expect in a place where you have hundreds of drunks of the streets). I have found if you look like a respectable, approachable person that people might want to talk to (gun aside) that you will have positive encounters. If you look or act like a thug who people might want to avoid and you are carrying a gun, you're more likely to have negative encounters and have 9-1-1 called on you. I think if you carry for the purpose of seeking negative attention, you're likely to find it.

    So, if you are in fact openly carrying to seek personal attention, show that you have a chip on your shoulder, and just foaming at the mouth to have a negative encounter so you can post it on YouTube, let me ask you this: don't Open Carry -- you give the rest of us a bad name.

    That all being said, I hope we can all rally behind #1 and #2 above as reasons that Open Carry is a good thing. Our goal in open carrying shouldn't be to shock people or grab negative attention, but to leave
    them thinking better about gun owners than before they saw us.



    /s/

    Phillip Hofmeister
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I OC because I believe firmly, that concealed carry is a detriment to the rights of gun owners.

    CC is exactly what the antis want, it lets them put their head in the sand, it lets their audience live in a false sense of "security" as they spew their anti gun, anti American propaganda. They get to show the world through various media outlets that guns are bad, gun owners are evil, while gun owners are pushed off to the corner. People never get to see what gun ownership is all about, they never get to see what gun owners really are. They don't see that the average guy who just held the door for them, donated to a charity, or who is just reading quietly is armed. They dont see how many gun owners are standing right there in line, willing to risk an attack from a madman, and followed by attacks from a biased and often violent government, friends family and again, the media.

    I carry because I value my life, freedoms, and yours, I hate concealed carry, except where it is prohibited. The life and the right are both of more value than any lesser law that violates the supreme law, which is clear, the constitution. The life and the right are also both greater than someone elses opinion, or sign, rule, or policy.

    Since I feel this strongly, I am attacked from all sides, but I really don't care, its a matter of priorities for me. Life and liberty are priorities, greater than opinions or words. Those are things I value, things I vow to protect. The best way to protect your life is to carry a gun. The best way to protect your right to protect yourself, is to carry a gun openly.

    That's why I open carry.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-02-2012 at 04:50 PM.

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    Disclaimer

    Because I say the things I just said, people say that I broke the forum rules, and wish me to be banished. I say, that I have not broken the forum rules. I have not advocated lawlessness, nor broken any other forum rule in this context.

    The Constitutions, State and Federal, are the supreme law of the land. All who hold office swore to uphold that law with an oath. All, who passed, signed, or enforce any law that runs contrary to those supreme laws have broken the law, and their oaths.

    These lower laws, those claiming the existence of gun free zones, CC free areas, and so on, are against the superior law, those two constitutions, and are therefore void. It is our job, our responsibility to stand up to this form of tyranny whenever possible or practical. It is impractical for any of us to run around committing these so called felonies and misdemeanors to prove a point to those who answer to nothing but the point of a sword, but it is our duty to do anything within our power to right these wrongs within our nation and state.

    Im tired of people flaming me for taking a stand against tyrants, and have no intention of derailing this thread.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-02-2012 at 05:04 PM.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Here goes another thread derailed by you know who.....*sighs*

    Please, Don't Feed the Troll Bait.

    This thread wasn't about you until you made it about you. Do you feel the need to make every thread about you?
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-02-2012 at 05:06 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    4. Had no other legal option to carry in the state of Michigan. Now that I've been living in a state where I can CC or OC (IN) I have found myself carry concealed more than openly but I do OC now and then. Really kinda depends on how the mood strikes me.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  6. #6
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Here goes another thread derailed by you know who.....*sighs*

    Please, Don't Feed the Troll Bait.

    This thread wasn't about you until you made it about you. Do you feel the need to make every thread about you?
    I liked how you put the original text and i agree, If you are open carrying in order to get attention don't open carry.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Here goes another thread derailed by you know who.....*sighs*

    Please, Don't Feed the Troll Bait.

    This thread wasn't about you until you made it about you. Do you feel the need to make every thread about you?
    Well... you did ask, "Why do you Open Carry?"

    That requires an answer from an individual. So I guess, in order to answer the question, it kinda has to be about him/her.

    I agree, OC for the sole purpose of drawing attention to yourself to get a response is not the way to go. OC get's attention, you can't avoid it. But it's the motive for carry (self defense and/or 2a support) and how you present yourself that's important.

    I OC wherever not legally prohibited. I never expect to have an encounter. That's not why I open carry. But I am aware that it could happen.
    Hoka hey

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    Regular Member G22's Avatar
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    1.5 - Comfort. Nobody "likes" carrying a full size Glock or a 1911 IWB.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post

    and have no intention of derailing this thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Here goes another thread derailed by you know who.....*sighs*

    Please, Don't Feed the Troll Bait.
    I wasnt trolling, I was trying to stop it before it started.

    That is all.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G22 View Post
    1.5 - Comfort. Nobody "likes" carrying a full size Glock or a 1911 IWB.
    the Glock i would wholeheartedly agree with, it is like having a brick in the waist band, I find the 1911 albeit heavy very comfortable IWB with a good holster. Seems the pants help with the added wait and the thinness of the gun makes it, to me, comfortable, and comforting!
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    the Glock i would wholeheartedly agree with, it is like having a brick in the waist band, I find the 1911 albeit heavy very comfortable IWB with a good holster. Seems the pants help with the added wait and the thinness of the gun makes it, to me, comfortable, and comforting!
    I IWB carried a G20 as a backup for the majority of the summer, and only just last week stopped doing this for the majority of my waking hours due to a job change. I'm 5 feet 10 inches tall or so, and weigh about 175 pounds, and never had much of any comfort issues, although part of that may be the fact that for the vast majority of the time, I carry it unchambered and with no holster.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Why do you Open Carry?

    I carry a full sized XDm IWB at times. No issues.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    My main reason in Open Carrying is comfort... but whether the pistol is full size, compact, subcompact, or mouse is immaterial to me. It is just more comfortable to Open Carry and not have a pistol/holster up next to skin and keeps salt off the firearm.

    A secondary reason for me is that, in Michigan, my pistol can legally accompany me in many more places. If we allowed CC in those places though, that secondary reason would disappear.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-03-2012 at 05:22 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    the Glock i would wholeheartedly agree with, it is like having a brick in the waist band, I find the 1911 albeit heavy very comfortable IWB with a good holster. Seems the pants help with the added wait and the thinness of the gun makes it, to me, comfortable, and comforting!
    IWB w/ my Glock 23, I can forget it is on me when IWB... much as I can when OWB... but IWB I have marks left on my skin at times. But, keeping the sweat off the holster and the pistol is nice.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-03-2012 at 09:03 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    IWB w/ my Glock 23, I can forget it is on me... much as I can OWB... but IWB I have marks left on my skin at times. But, keeping the sweat off the holster and the pistol is nice.
    But tupperware doesn't mind salt
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    In truth I haven't OCed in quite a while. The crazy hot weather this year has made wearing a tucked in shirt a non-option for me. That coupled with losing my recorder and not having a holster with, IMO, good enough retention has left me CCing. I've replaced the recorder and the holster and was planning on OCing up at Mackinac this past weekend but again it was too bloody hot for a tucked in shirt so it was CC all weekend.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 09-03-2012 at 08:30 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Pond Scum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    In truth I haven't OCed in quite a while. ......

    Bronson

    Whaaaaattt?? But Bronson, you are my hero! Every time I think about CC'ing I just ask myself, "WWBD -- What Would Bronson Do?". Then I just OC! It makes my life so much simpler!

    I have been OC'ing much more this summer because riding the bike it is much easier and more comfortable. Also, trying to OC on some normal shopping trips.

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    Hmmm

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    I liked everything about this piece except this part:

    ...don't Open Carry -- you give the rest of us a bad name.
    Somehow that part didn't sit well with me. Not because I'm a type 3 (I'm certainly not), but because types 1 and 2 are about as extreme and undesirable to Fudds as type 3 is to us. "You give the rest of us a bad name" is the EXACT same argument that Fudds use against those of us who legitimately open carry, and it's the same thing people here say about LGOC. It's a very bad argument to make to someone who understands that their liberty is theirs as an individual, not because they belong to a group. When I hear that argument, my libertarian rebelliousness starts showing- "I'll do whatever the hell I want to do, your name is of no concern to me and my rights!", even though I reject type 3.

    Telling someone to not open carry is not our place. Telling someone their individual actions somehow gives us a bad name--- to me, it implies group rights, something I think we should all get into the habit of abandoning. We should be clear in affirming that what someone else does DOESN'T impact our good name, since they are acting as individuals. We shouldn't be acknowledging that what they do impacts our name! In fact, all open carry should be an act of individuals. Some of us choose to band together for strength and support, not for our rights to be acknowledged as a group right. Still, those people open carry as an individual act of their liberty.

    Instead, our place should be to tell people what we do and what we don't do. For example, I don't open carry to seek attention from police. I don't open carry to invoke fear or discomfort in the public. I do open carry to positively desensitize the public about my right to carry. I do carry for self-defense. I do open carry as a public political statement expressing my love for my liberty.

    That's a very positive message that encourages even the most defiant libertarian amongst us, without any demands for disarmament or any implications of group rights.

    But again, that was just a small part of this piece that I didn't like. Everything else was spot on.
    Last edited by kubel; 09-04-2012 at 03:18 AM.

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    Re: Why do you Open Carry?

    Agreed!

    Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pond Scum View Post
    Whaaaaattt?? But Bronson, you are my hero! Every time I think about CC'ing I just ask myself, "WWBD -- What Would Bronson Do?". Then I just OC! It makes my life so much simpler!

    I have been OC'ing much more this summer because riding the bike it is much easier and more comfortable. Also, trying to OC on some normal shopping trips.
    Oh I'll OC again but not until I can comfortably wear a tucked in shirt. For whatever reason I have been "blessed" with the sweat glands of four normal men so tucking in a shirt when it's hot or more than about .5% humidity just doesn't work for me. That and I'm not comfortable OCing without a recorder running but I've replaced the lost one so that's no longer an issue.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Why do you Open Carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    I liked everything about this piece except this part:



    Somehow that part didn't sit well with me. Not because I'm a type 3 (I'm certainly not), but because types 1 and 2 are about as extreme and undesirable to Fudds as type 3 is to us. "You give the rest of us a bad name" is the EXACT same argument that Fudds use against those of us who legitimately open carry, and it's the same thing people here say about LGOC. It's a very bad argument to make to someone who understands that their liberty is theirs as an individual, not because they belong to a group. When I hear that argument, my libertarian rebelliousness starts showing- "I'll do whatever the hell I want to do, your name is of no concern to me and my rights!", even though I reject type 3.

    Telling someone to not open carry is not our place. Telling someone their individual actions somehow gives us a bad name--- to me, it implies group rights, something I think we should all get into the habit of abandoning. We should be clear in affirming that what someone else does DOESN'T impact our good name, since they are acting as individuals. We shouldn't be acknowledging that what they do impacts our name! In fact, all open carry should be an act of individuals. Some of us choose to band together for strength and support, not for our rights to be acknowledged as a group right. Still, those people open carry as an individual act of their liberty.

    Instead, our place should be to tell people what we do and what we don't do. For example, I don't open carry to seek attention from police. I don't open carry to invoke fear or discomfort in the public. I do open carry to positively desensitize the public about my right to carry. I do carry for self-defense. I do open carry as a public political statement expressing my love for my liberty.

    That's a very positive message that encourages even the most defiant libertarian amongst us, without any demands for disarmament or any implications of group rights.

    But again, that was just a small part of this piece that I didn't like. Everything else was spot on.
    Here is an example of such a person: I once knew a man who would walk up and down downtown streets when there was a lot of police officers present and make it a point to flip off every police officer he saw.

    Is this the type of person that we want representing us?

    I too am a libertarian, I totally understand individualism. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn't and they still cling to stereotypes.

    It is because of this we need to call out the undesirable behavior amongst ourselves and make it clear that that doesn't represent most of us.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-04-2012 at 01:48 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  23. #23
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Here is an example of such a person: I once knew a man who would walk up and down downtown streets when there was a lot of police officers present and make it a point to flip off every police officer he saw.

    Is this the type of person that we want representing us?

    I too am a libertarian, I totally understand individualism. Unfortunately, most of the world doesn't and they still cling to stereotypes.

    It is because of this we need to call out the undesirable behavior amongst ourselves and make it clear that that doesn't represent most of us.
    Oh, you mean like this guy? (This was taken from another OCDO thread). Warning: NSFW language.

    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams
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  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Why do you Open Carry?

    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Oh, you mean like this guy? (This was taken from another OCDO thread). Warning: NSFW language.

    Pretty much. That fellow who lives in Oregon and is frequently trolling the cops and private people for negative OC interactions comes to mind also.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-04-2012 at 02:38 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    In truth I haven't OCed in quite a while. The crazy hot weather this year has made wearing a tucked in shirt a non-option for me. That coupled with losing my recorder and not having a holster with, IMO, good enough retention has left me CCing. I've replaced the recorder and the holster and was planning on OCing up at Mackinac this past weekend but again it was too bloody hot for a tucked in shirt so it was CC all weekend.

    Bronson
    Why not just un-tuck your shirt?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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