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Thread: First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

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    First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

    Well, I knew it would happen sooner or later and I figured it would most likely happen in Brooklyn, as they tend to overreact...

    Walked into Giant Eagle around 11:30 PM, immediately saw an officer at the door, as there usually is.

    I was only going in to grab a drink / Monster. A cashier was cleaning up and saw me and I could tell immediately that she was going to cause trouble. Continued my walk, finding no Monster in the coolers near the registers I settled on a Pepsi, on my way back I heard

    "Hey you! yo! You!",
    to which the officer approached me. I asked what I could do for him, he asked if I had a CCW, I replied Yes.

    He responded "What does the C stand for?", whilst giving me attitude. I stated that I am not concealing my weapon and that open carry in legal in Ohio. He proceeded to tell me otherwise. Then demanded that I cover it up, to which I once again explained I do not have to.

    He then said "get out of my store", to which I politely explained that it is not, in fact, his store, and that Giant Eagle's policy is to follow state law. He then tried to tell me there were signs posted at the door, to which I told him there were not and once again, Giant Eagle follows state policy.

    His next step was to tell me how three people had already mentioned something to him in the minute or so I was in there, I responded that it is unfortunate but I am not breaking any laws. He asked me under what ORC am I allowed to carry a handgun, to which I informed him of ORC 9.68 and state laws preempting local laws. Then he told me that by not covering it up, it was disorderly conduct. I explained to him how just recently, Cincinnati finally acknowledged open carry as being legal and informed their officers that they cannot charge disorderly conduct for open carry due to it being legal in Ohio.

    He responded with "Are with in Cincinnati?", which I responded with "No, we are in Ohio, and open carry is legal in Ohio". Again he tells me it is not, I ask him to tell me under what statue open carry is illegal, to which he refuses. He then tells me his badge number (15) so that I can "put it in the report" (which I will definitely do). I explained how I was simply here to purchase a drink and would have left quite a while ago had he not stopped me.

    Being that this was my first encounter with a LEO giving me issues, I was a bit nervous and apparently a bit shaky (though I held my ground). He apparently noticed and asked why this was, and I said "truthfully, because this is the first time I've had to talk with a cop about this", he responds "Oh I'm the first to talk to you about this huh?" to which I said Yes.

    At that point I was getting a bit tired of the conversation, as I was running late to meeting up at my brothers house, and I told the officer he was more than welcome to follow me out if he'd like, to which he started up on some other nonsense. Eventually he told me he'd be following me, and I said "That's fine, I'm going to the self checkout over there".

    While checking out, I went to clip my keys to my pants loop and informed him of this, as my hand would be reaching towards the weapon and I did not want to startle him. He responded with "Why are you telling me, I don't care, what, you want to be able to put everything in your report?"

    I responded saying that it was just out of respect and courtesy to inform him where my hands were headed, to which he asked me why I was ignoring his question. I explained I did not understand what he was asking, to which he said "Nevermind".

    I paid, then left, he followed me back towards his "post" and stopped there, I turned back and said "Have a nice evening, officer".

    All in all, he was rude and refused to accept that he was wrong. I tried to show him ORC on my phone but he didn't want to see it. I get a feeling, however, that he may have known after all.

    Notice how he did not ask for my CCW after demanding I cover it up, nor did he have any issue with me openly carrying it elsewhere..just not in "his" store, as evident by him telling me to leave, but nothing more.

    He asked why I wanted to be a rebel, I stated that I was just protecting myself and demonstrating my 2A rights.

    So though I was hassled, I still walked out on my own free will, when I was done, and still openly carrying.

    I will be putting a call in to the Brooklyn Giant Eagle to talk to the GM, then to their corporate if the GM isn't receptive. I will also be placing a call to the Brooklyn Chief of Police.




    If anyone would like to help out, here is the Chief's information.

    Scott Mielke, Chief
    smielke@brooklynohio.gov
    216.635.4237

    The officer's badge was #15.


    Brooklyn PD tends to be notoriously ridiculous with their enforcement of laws, the more people who provide their statements, the faster Brooklyn will hopefully acknowledge our rights. I'm not sure how I managed to grow up there.



    (Funny, I've never had this problem in the G.E in Parma Heights near my apartment...)

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    OMG! Another encounter in Northern Ohio, where as we all know, those pesky state laws don't apply!

    It sounds like you did a GREAT job.

    Now you have do decide what the next step is: a letter to the chief, or a visit to a city council meeting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    OMG! Another encounter in Northern Ohio, where as we all know, those pesky state laws don't apply!

    It sounds like you did a GREAT job.

    Now you have do decide what the next step is: a letter to the chief, or a visit to a city council meeting.

    I'd like to think I did. Again, nervous but stood my ground. I think I will write a letter to the chief / call him. The last I knew (which was several years ago), he was a pretty reasonable guy, though it could be someone else by now.

    I grew up in Brooklyn and I know all too well as the city council meetings go. I don't think any progress would be made if I went there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    ...I grew up in Brooklyn and I know all too well as the city council meetings go. I don't think any progress would be made if I went there.
    Well, their meetings are probably broadcast, and the last thing that politicians want is for their dirty laundry to be aired in public - assuming you present your case well.

    They may not agree to do anything, they may not appear publically to act, but they may do so. Then again, they may not. Either way, if it comes to that, what do you have to lose? You tried to point out the problem to them and they blew you off - all the more ammo for the next time, if there is one.

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    I sent a letter out to GE head of customer service on behalf of Gary Starcher, a couple of days ago, but with the holiday's, I don't expect a reply quite yet.
    I would love to send another one on behalf of you. IMO this might start to show a pattern of corrupt activity, and harassment to law abiding customers, which I would gladly (love) point out to corporate. If your interested, jslack7851@yahoo.com, send me your name, store address, and perhaps the security guard's name.

    I just wonder, how many of these GE cases do we need b/4 someone could sue them for harassment from their security guards.

    I'd love to write the Chief, but right now I'm pissed and my anger would be counter productive, I'm sure it would come out in the letter, but with two cases of security guard harassment I can point out to corporate they have a problem.
    Last edited by JSlack7851; 09-03-2012 at 12:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    I sent a letter out to GE head of customer service on behalf of Gary Starcher, a couple of days ago, but with the holiday's, I don't expect a reply quite yet.
    I would love to send another one on behalf of you. IMO this might start to show a pattern of corrupt activity, and harassment to law abiding customers, which I would gladly (love) point out to corporate. If your interested, jslack7851@yahoo.com, send me your name, store address, and perhaps the security guard's name.

    I just wonder, how many of these GE cases do we need b/4 someone could sue them for harassment from their security guards.

    I'd love to write the Chief, but right now I'm pissed and my anger would be counter productive, I'm sure it would come out in the letter, but with two cases of security guard harassment I can point out to corporate they have a problem.
    I'm not blaming GE too much. I believe it was one employee who talked to the LEO and then a couple of shoppers. There weren't many but they all noticed I was carrying. I just want GE to release a memo to all stores to inform their employees that OCing is legal, so they don't run to LEOs anymore.

    Aside from that, I'm entirely blaming it on the Brooklyn LEO for not understanding, and not wanting to understand. I will definitely e-mail you, I was planning on contacting GE myself but it seems you've got a pretty decent template going already.

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    I'm not blaming GE, I'm just pointing out to the Head of CS that their policy is not being followed. Obviously more training is going to be required, and a stop to this harassment of LAC should be put to a stop, also. You documented your case well. Is there a voice recording of the encounter?

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    On the other hand, you don't want to push on Giant Eagle too much - unless they're really staunch RKBA people they may throw up their hands and say "We're not dealing with this B.S. - no carry at all!!"

    And, police officers and departments have been known to tell business owners things that aren't so in order to persuade them to make such moves.

    IMHO, the OP's problem is with the police, not Giant Eagle, and that's where his attention should be concentrated. Remember, the business probably wants to have a good working relationship with the police, so the OP (not GE) should be the "bad guy" in delivering the message.

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    Have a look at this page of my OCDO blog.
    There are links on that page so you can read these statutes, but they're the 3 most applicable federal civil rights laws related to 2A advocates being harassed.

    42USC1983, titled Civil action for deprivation of rights
    This requires the action be "under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage", so is generally applied to officers behaving badly.
    If there's evidence that the custom of that PD is to harass OCers, or just 2A advocated in general, or if the officer tried to tell you that a law requires you to conceal, there ya go.

    42USC1985 is Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights
    That requires "two or more persons" agreeing to act against you, and at least one of them actually doing something. Probably not applicable in this case.
    (ETA: but wouldn't that apply to businesses which ban the 2A?)

    Those 2 are civil actions - you can bring suit against the person or people harassing you

    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    Again, this requires proof that it's not just this one officer going off on his own opinion.
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
    ...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
    and ... if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap... they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 09-03-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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    Regular Member Garystarcher's Avatar
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    First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

    I was just involved in the harassment case that Jslack is referring to. He wrote a very good letter to the head of CS but like he said it is a holiday. I am waiting for tomorrow to contact the chief of canton to talk about a meeting with him.

    It sounds like you handled it very well I'm real surprised the officer didn't request any ID.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    On the other hand, you don't want to push on Giant Eagle too much - unless they're really staunch RKBA people they may throw up their hands and say "We're not dealing with this B.S. - no carry at all!!"

    And, police officers and departments have been known to tell business owners things that aren't so in order to persuade them to make such moves.

    IMHO, the OP's problem is with the police, not Giant Eagle, and that's where his attention should be concentrated. Remember, the business probably wants to have a good working relationship with the police, so the OP (not GE) should be the "bad guy" in delivering the message.
    I disagree

    I believe they would probably rather have a better relationship with customers. Jeff Garvas, had the same concerns as you BB62, while I was working on Dick's Sporting Goods. Maybe I shouldn't look into corporations due to the fact they might post stores. Garvas is known for his position on OC. Then I got this from the head of Dick's Sporting Goods, customer service:

    Mr. Slack-
    I attempted to reach Mr. Nehez and left a message for a return call last night. I do hope he will reach back out to us as he is within his legal right to open carry in our Ohio stores. We do not post signs and DICK’S Sporting Goods does not intend to post signs in an effort to deter those patrons from open carry. Our office does intent to better inform our associates within those states that have open carry to avoid confusion and any potential inconvenience to our valued customers.

    Thank you and best regards,
    Jean Taggart

    Jean Taggart | Manager of Customer Engagement

    Any body else think that maybe I shouldn't be working on Open Carry rights, here in OC.org? Mr. Nehez was escorted out of DSG by the Manager for OC. A week later two of us went to two different DSG stores and were given very good treatment. As of now, I fully expect to get the same response from GE.

    I also believe GE's policy of mirroring State law was well thought out long ago and they if policy isn't followed, they would want to know about it. As long as LEO are working for GE, they are representatives of GE, and as such are required to abide by their policy.

    Since neither GE case I'm working on had any civil rights violated. I don't see the point of going to the security guard's Chief's of Police, since these security guards were moonlighting, it wouldn't be within the scope of the Chief's authority. However it couldn't hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    Since neither GE case I'm working on had any civil rights violated. I don't see the point of going to the security guard's Chief's of Police, since these security guards were moonlighting, it wouldn't be within the scope of the Chief's authority. However it couldn't hurt.

    Brooklyn PD has a habit of posting officers at locations such as GE / the high school. While I believe they are being paid BY the establishment they are guarding, this is still an example of Brooklyn PD not knowing the laws.

    I just sent the chief a rather long but very detailed and polite e-mail explaining Ohio's laws and the situation. I'll update as soon as I get a response back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851
    Since neither GE case I'm working on had any civil rights violated, I don't see the point of going to the security guard's Chief's of Police, since these security guards were moonlighting, it wouldn't be within the scope of the Chief's authority. However it couldn't hurt.
    I disagree that no civil rights were violated.
    The officer detained the citizen when the citizen had done nothing wrong.
    The officer knew, or should reasonably have known, that open carry is legal in Ohio.
    Yet he tried to intimidate, bully, coerce, etc., the citizen into doing what the officer wanted.
    And it's a training issue with the department (esp. if there's a pattern to be found through FOIA requests), plus the officer was in the uniform of the department while committing the crime.

    1A freedom of assembly (including travel)
    4A unreasonable searches & seizures. A person is seized when a reasonable person in the same situation would feel that s/he was not free to leave.
    14A says all civil rights in the Constitution apply to the states.
    Also:
    No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    In order to use it in this situation, you'd have to find out about departmental policies & previous complaints against officers who behaved badly toward OCers (or 2A advocates).
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
    ...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both
    42USC1983 Civil action for deprivation of rights
    Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding
    Now, as interferences go this was pretty tame, but it was still an illegal interference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    I disagree

    I believe they would probably rather have a better relationship with customers. Jeff Garvas, had the same concerns as you BB62, while I was working on Dick's Sporting Goods. Maybe I shouldn't look into corporations due to the fact they might post stores. Garvas is known for his position on OC...
    Oh, no, not me and Jeff G. in same sentence when talking about OC!! And, yes, Mr. G. is known for his position on OC.

    Dick's sells sporting goods (including evil GUNS), but Giant Eagle is a grocery store. I would expect Dick's and their customers to feel more strongly about things related to firearms than Giant Eagle customers/management.

    But, unlike Mr. G., I don't disagree with your approach with Dick's.


    Quote Originally Posted by JSlack7851 View Post
    ...I also believe GE's policy of mirroring State law was well thought out long ago and they if policy isn't followed, they would want to know about it. As long as LEO are working for GE, they are representatives of GE, and as such are required to abide by their policy.

    Since neither GE case I'm working on had any civil rights violated. I don't see the point of going to the security guard's Chief's of Police, since these security guards were moonlighting, it wouldn't be within the scope of the Chief's authority. However it couldn't hurt.
    You may be right about GE's policy, that about it being "well thought out". I simply don't know. I know that a local chain (Kroger - under many, many names nationwide) has the same policy, but I know for a fact that it isn't strongly supported by the company. You may know different about GE.

    I see where you're going with the "representatives" views, and I agree that they are. Again, without knowing the degree to which the company supports the RKBA, I simply feel the better course is to go after the lying, intimidating police officer via his department. Going through his department also has the additional benefit of forcing/attempting to force an understanding of the law on the whole department, and not just the one officer. If nothing else, your attempt will be on the record for the next open records request which may be necessary. <hint, hint>


    Since we're both fine, upstanding citizens, though, we can agree to politely disagree on Giant Eagle.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-03-2012 at 08:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BB62 View Post
    Since we're both fine, upstanding citizens, though, we can agree to politely disagree on Giant Eagle.
    I'm looking for the 'like' button, but alas. Time will tell, 'well thought out' or not. I got 2 polite letters into GE CS asking for clarification.

    Your right about the difference between the grocery store and the gun shop. I did / may have mentioned a open carry protest and mention 100 or so people showing up at Campbell, with pictures, but not with GE. If they ever post, it won't be b/c of my letters.
    Last edited by JSlack7851; 09-03-2012 at 10:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    Have a look at this page of my OCDO blog.
    There are links on that page so you can read these statutes, but they're the 3 most applicable federal civil rights laws related to 2A advocates being harassed.

    42USC1983, titled Civil action for deprivation of rights
    This requires the action be "under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage", so is generally applied to officers behaving badly.
    If there's evidence that the custom of that PD is to harass OCers, or just 2A advocated in general, or if the officer tried to tell you that a law requires you to conceal, there ya go.

    42USC1985 is Conspiracy to interfere with civil rights
    That requires "two or more persons" agreeing to act against you, and at least one of them actually doing something. Probably not applicable in this case.
    (ETA: but wouldn't that apply to businesses which ban the 2A?)

    Those 2 are civil actions - you can bring suit against the person or people harassing you

    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    Again, this requires proof that it's not just this one officer going off on his own opinion.
    You forgot perhaps the most important one 42 USC 1986 Neglect to prevent which can be used to sue everyone from the shift sergeant to the police chief, mayor, city attorney, city councilmen-persons....

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    Interesting...

    18USC241 Conspiracy against rights, however, is a felony & is applicable to anyone.
    If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State ... in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same
    ...
    They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both;
    and ... if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap... they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
    Could this be used against a group of officers if someone is put into handcuffs with no RAS? That to me would be an "attempt to kidnap."
    Last edited by Noel Avenelle; 09-04-2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Re: First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

    I received a response from the Brooklyn Chief.

    > Jonathan,
    >
    > *
    >
    > I am sorry to hear that you felt you were mistreated in anyway.* In reviewing your email I found a couple of issues that the officer will be corrected about.* First and foremost is his knowledge of the open carry law.* He will be properly educated by our Firearms instructor on this point.* Secondly I found issue with the way you explained that he spoke to you.* I will council him on interacting on a more professional manner. *
    >
    > *
    >
    > I must emphasize that while you felt you may have felt the encounter was unwarranted, we as police officers must respond to all complaints.* Especially since you stated one of the complainants was a store employee.
    >
    > *
    >
    > Again I am sorry you felt your experience with my officer was negative.* I will handle this situation just as you suggested and educated him about your experience and how he could have handled it better.

    I responded thanking him but also explaining that the officer should have observed from a distance to determine RAS prior to talking to me.
    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    You forgot perhaps the most important one 42 USC 1986 Neglect to prevent which can be used to sue everyone from the shift sergeant to the police chief, mayor, city attorney, city councilmen-persons....
    Just how do you expect one guy to file all the lawsuits possible? I don't know that I have enough equity in my house to get a loan, to pay for a lawyer. All it takes is money. Since neither of these 2 officers would admit, and one of them even said, something to the effect of 'I never detained you'. Case 1, none of the officers questions were answered and the other didn't amount to anything either.

    The only right that was abused was not being able to go shopping, and I'm working on that now. There was a idle threat about littering,,,, no damages....no payday. I don't even have enough damages to bluff a lawsuit, which I considered in exchange for these officers termination.

    If I'm missing something, somebody please tell me...

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    Re: First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

    I think you are confusing threads. There was only one officer and nothing to do with littering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hareuhal View Post
    I received a response from the Brooklyn Chief...
    Impressive!

    Time will tell whether the word has spread to the rest of the department. Are you doing to do any follow-up open records requests or anything, or do you consider the matter closed?

    One last comment: the Chief said "I must emphasize that while you felt you may have felt the encounter was unwarranted, we as police officers must respond to all complaints.* Especially since you stated one of the complainants was a store employee." No one question his decision to respond - it's how he responded that's the problem.

    The fact that the Chief glossed over/ignored/didn't recognize that is concerning, but... time will tell.
    Last edited by BB62; 09-04-2012 at 07:42 PM. Reason: to add commentary

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    I am not too concerned with it. Hopefully the Chief holds up his end and all goes well. I plan on returning in a few days time and OCing right past the same officer, that should be an indicator of whether or not he spoke with him.

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    First Encounter (Brooklyn, Giant Eagle)

    I plan on doing the exact same thing. Good luck to you.

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