OC Video From Versailles, KY (not personal experience)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhL4drh12Jc&feature=plcp

I stumbled upon the following video tonight. It is short (9:43) and worth watching for critique. I have not seen this posted here yet - if it has been discussed - Moderator please remove.

Summary:
-Versailles, KY
-2am
-OC (1911 and Bible)
-Were some arguable mistakes made by subject - gave up several rights
-Several very shady mistakes/comments made by LEO
* insinuated "new laws" on video/audio recording
* LEO smart enough to deny detainment - but refused multiple times to give back ID (critique will follow this I'm sure-gave DL&CCDW to LEO)
* Subject was obviously detained until LEO Sgt. arrived
* LEO Sgt. handled much better than initiating LEO... but...


My opinion: Could have been a lot worse. Not impressed by Versailles LEO (in this incident only). I feel like the LEO's knew the laws VERY clearly, yet did not show professionalism. It really bothers me to see incidents like this "close to home". I travel ALL of KY and TN for work - so for 3-4 days a week anywhere can be home. I am looking forward to reading the opinions of others here on this video and how the subject could/should have handled this differently.



(yes... I am "new" here - probably have 3 posts by now. I have been following the boards for several months but until what seems to be a "rash" of KY incidents, I have not posted. I rarely OC. I CC every day. Have found this forum to contain a wealth of knowledge with very little issues that arise in most forums of any type. The only issue that I have a problem with is seeing someone told they CANNOT carry.)

Welcome! Glad you can join us.

As far as the video goes--I actually know this guy. In my opinion from knowing him--he has some undiagnosed mental health problems. Since this video, he has had his CCDW and firearms revoked due to charges of domestic violence, I believe. In this video, I think it seems as if he is baiting LEOs or others.

After having watched the video I can honestly say that the OC'er (assuming that he was OC'ing), did in fact give LEO reasonable cause to suspect something was awry. I know I definitely would've had reasonable suspicion. To his defense though, no DL had to be presented being that according tot he video he was on foot. No CCDW had to be presented as he was OC'ing at the time either. His presenting them with his CCDW did not accomplish the outcome that a gun owner would want but that was due larger in part to his actions and not listening to LEO.

@neuro-

I agree on the lack of reason to supply DL or CCDW (appears to be mistake on the subject's part). It does seem strange that the LEO's would never say that he was being detained however... just kept saying something to the effect of "just stick around a minute". Of course, if he would have left, he would have been without ID or CCDW. If LEO had RAS, wouldn't they have said "yes you are being detained because we suspect you of..."

I am NOT defending either party even though walking down the street at 2am with a Bible and firearm is strange. However, "strange aint illegal" yet.

@langz-

Unfortunate for all parties if that is/was the case. I do not agree with about 90% of these OC "Youtuber's" intentions on the videos. However, I suppose in an unintended sort of way, it gives the rest of us some scenarios to look at and see reactions from all sides. Many times I'm afraid it gives legal gun owner's a collective bad name.

The Southern Poverty Law Center recently released a video for LEO training purposes that was intended to demonstrate "how to handle sovereign citizens". Some of the tips on how to recognize these "far right extremists" (wording was very similar) were bumper stickers and video cameras. The reason for the video was spawned from the tragic murder of two W. Memphis, AR LEOs by self described "Sov. Citiz". The incident was shocking, tragic and uncalled for - and two brave LEOs were murdered on the interstate. However, the blanket statement linking cop killing sovereign citizens to right wing bumper stickers and video cameras was disturbing. (sorry - point of that rant was dealing with folks who bait and video tape OC encounters)


Nevertheless, the Vers.PD may have went a little too far without a detention or arrest.

jaymack said:

@neuro-

I agree on the lack of reason to supply DL or CCDW (appears to be mistake on the subject's part). It does seem strange that the LEO's would never say that he was being detained however... just kept saying something to the effect of "just stick around a minute". Of course, if he would have left, he would have been without ID or CCDW. If LEO had RAS, wouldn't they have said "yes you are being detained because we suspect you of..."

I am NOT defending either party even though walking down the street at 2am with a Bible and firearm is strange. However, "strange aint illegal" yet.

Click to expand...

I agree with you about the RAS issue, Jaymack but the manner in which this particular OC'er decided to attempt to handle this incident is indicative of someone attempting to "bait" LE into doing something stupid so they can attemtp to sue the department. He legally did NOT have to produce his DL being that he was on foot, nor his CCDW, being that he was in OC at the time. Those were his own mistakes. His attempt to bait the officer's was in very poor judgement as far as I'm concerned because it just served to tarnish the good image that we as gun owner's, OC'er & CC'er alike. Had he just shut up and listened to what the officer's were trying to say, he would've been done long before and on his way.

Some gun owner's act asthough they are above the law and above being asked a few questions when stopped. While it is definitely not illegal to go out for a walk with a sidearm and a Bible around 2 in the AM, it is most definitely strange and in some sense, strange is enough to cause concern, especially when the gun owner is acting like this jackhole was.

At the very least, this video should serve as an example of just how NOT to handle a situation like this.

Not having cared to watch the video, but observing the comments alone;

Regarding: "Some gun owner's act as though they are above the law and above being asked a few questions when stopped. While it is definitely not illegal to go out for a walk with a sidearm and a Bible around 2 in the AM, it is most definitely strange and in some sense, strange is enough to cause concern, especially when the gun owner is acting like this jackhole was. "

Are we not truly above being stopped for doing nothing more than OC'ing, no matter the time and day? Are we not above being asked -why- we're OCing no matter the time or day? What difference does it make if Person A is OC'ing and carrying a bible at 2am, or 2pm, or in their home, or on an interstate? Again, unless I'm misjudging what you're saying, sounds like you're saying its okay to be stopped and question for OC'ing.

Sadly, I'm one of the gun owners who DO act as though their "above being asked a few questions when stopped" - Simply because of Holland V Commonwealth gives us/me the reason to. [Holland V Commonwealth regarding Open Carrying] "If the gun is worn outside the jacket or shirt in full view, no one may question the wearer’s right so to do..."1

1: http://www.kc3.com/Holland v Commonwealth.htm

YAP YAP YAP YAP .. idiot .... she should just shut the hell up..."make a point"...

neuroblades said:

After having watched the video I can honestly say that the OC'er (assuming that he was OC'ing), did in fact give LEO reasonable cause to suspect something was awry. I know I definitely would've had reasonable suspicion. To his defense though, no DL had to be presented being that according tot he video he was on foot. No CCDW had to be presented as he was OC'ing at the time either. His presenting them with his CCDW did not accomplish the outcome that a gun owner would want but that was due larger in part to his actions and not listening to LEO.

Click to expand...

RAS is not "hey, there is a mathematical possibility that guy has committed or is about to commit a crime" ... more is needed.

2AM? So? Lots of people work 2nd & 3rd shifts ...

langzaiguy said:

Welcome! Glad you can join us.

As far as the video goes--I actually know this guy. In my opinion from knowing him--he has some undiagnosed mental health problems. Since this video, he has had his CCDW and firearms revoked due to charges of domestic violence, I believe. In this video, I think it seems as if he is baiting LEOs or others.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with you 100%. I actually watched this video some weeks back and it really bothered me on two fronts -- rights violations *and* the crackpot baiting the police. It was VERY evident to me, at least, that this guy isn't your normal, average dude trying to peacefully OC. It felt like one of many vids I have seen where he was purposefully trying to prove a point and make the officers look dumb (of course, there's nothing illegal about any of those things).

Like most here, I have seen lots of videos of people being harassed or incorrectly stopped by officers when they were just going about their normal business and happened to be wise enough to have some type of recorder. However, I have seen more videos of people just trying to bait officers. Of course, due to ego and poor understanding of the law, the officers are usually quite easily baited and therefore behave poorly (or illegally).

There's a fine line between legally exercising your right to OC and legally exercising your right to annoy cops while open carrying. One is cool, the other is a jackass thing to do albeit still very much legal.

I will draw some fire from some people here, but yeah, I think walking down the road at 2am with a gun while waving a bible around is certainly enough of a disturbance to warrant some brief questions. Normal people just don't do that On the other hand, as said by others, there seemed to be no illegal activity. Lack of illegal activity was rather quickly discerned in the first few minutes and after that, it was just an ego battle with the police ultimately on the wrong side.

I'm glad to hear this guy got his CCDW removed because I suspect (just a guess based on my interpretation of the video) that he is trouble and certainly would not represent OC people very well.

In another thread here, I saw the video of the guy on the motorcycle who was stopped for OC. That guy seemed VERY reasonable, very calm, and very correct. He handled himself well and the officers were outright wrong. These are the battles which should be fought. Jerks who bait police for an ego trip and a cool youtube video would be better served by being shamed by the rest of us.

Reading the many threads on this site, I've actually had my pro-rights stance strengthened significantly. More and more, I do see the need to stand your ground and defend your right to not be unreasonably questioned and harassed by officers just for OC. On the other hand, I am also seeing more and more people who seem to be doing this task merely for sport. Those people do a major disservice to us all.