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Thread: Can This Weapon Be Considered a Machine Gun in Most States?!?

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    Regular Member Smurfologist's Avatar
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    Can This Weapon Be Considered a Machine Gun in Most States?!?

    All,

    My cousin asked me to look into the Arsenal Firearms' Double Barrel Pistol (AF2011-A1) to find out if there are some states (other than CA, MD, IL, and DC - Not a State) where this gun may be considered illegal because of it's funtionality (shooting more than 1 round with 1 pull of the trigger). Thanks in advance for your input and I apologize if this has been asked about already.

    http://www.gizmag.com/arsenal-firear...-pistol/21806/
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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smurfologist View Post
    All,

    My cousin asked me to look into the Arsenal Firearms' Double Barrel Pistol (AF2011-A1) to find out if there are some states (other than CA, MD, IL, and DC - Not a State) where this gun may be considered illegal because of it's funtionality (shooting more than 1 round with 1 pull of the trigger). Thanks in advance for your input and I apologize if this has been asked about already.

    http://www.gizmag.com/arsenal-firear...-pistol/21806/
    It fires only one round per trigger pull. It has two triggers, two barrels, and looks like it weighs more than I would want to carry.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    I thought it had two distinct triggers. If not, it is a machine gun in all 57 states, all the territories and all the commonwealth trusts. Also in Puerto Rico.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Taken from the OP's link,

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.gizmag.com/arsenal-firearms-double-barrel-pistol/21806
    ... It can however be customized to use a single trigger or two separate triggers, so the left and right barrel can be fired independently ...
    I don't think I'm going to rush to buy one just yet

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    Taken from the OP's link,



    I don't think I'm going to rush to buy one just yet
    Yep...that's got about the same appeal the Simmerling's had.

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    Isn't that both frames welded together? so if you have a jam in one, the other couldn't fire.
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I thought it had two distinct triggers. If not, it is a machine gun in all 57 states, all the territories and all the commonwealth trusts. Also in Puerto Rico.

    stay safe.
    Looks like it has 2 triggers .... its a useless gun IMO ...

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Even if you get the version with two triggers to be legal in the US, it is one slide, which means it has no choice but to reload both barrels, even if you only fire one (assuming one round has enough energy to cycle its action). Or am I not seeing something?
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-04-2012 at 11:33 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    .... Or am I not seeing something?
    What you and davidmcbeth and peter nap are not seeing is that it is "2 kewel 4 skul". Dontcha know we are all supposed to become instant fanbois just because it is different and new and not bother our silly little minds about the fact this might actually be best useable as a boat anchor. [/sarcasm]

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
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    Regular Member Riana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    I thought it had two distinct triggers. If not, it is a machine gun in all 57 states, all the territories and all the commonwealth trusts. Also in Puerto Rico.
    I thought more than one round fired per trigger pull = machine gun. The headline does say that it fires two shots with each trigger pull.

    Now why someone would want this is beyond me. Give me two cheap 1911's and some superglue, and I can make one. And it would be about as useful.

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    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riana View Post
    I thought more than one round fired per trigger pull = machine gun. The headline does say that it fires two shots with each trigger pull.

    Now why someone would want this is beyond me. Give me two cheap 1911's and some superglue, and I can make one. And it would be about as useful.
    Technically it is one round per trigger pull. However, the marketing would truthfully say that it is one fingerpull = 2 triggerpull = 1 pull all the same in the marketing world. I have no doubt it could be modified to tie the two triggers together which would make it a machinegun after modification. I imagine that the single slide design renders both barrels inoperable on a single side jam and without knowing the spring constants in use I couldn't hazard a guess as to the ability to recycle on a single barrel discharge. I also don't know why you would want to only fire a single barrel at a time with a sidearm this "kewl."
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  12. #12
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    All the pictures I've seen are of a model with a single hammer. Doesn't matter which trigger fires it, that double-wide hammer is going to fire both. If there is a model with separate hammers, you still have the issue of a single slide, which would just waste a loaded round in order to legally fire only one of them.

    This concept is best left as it is, as a fantastic piece of clever engineering and craftsmanship, designed to be relegated to coffee table book lore.

    The reader comments at the end of the article are disturbing. People complaining about handguns in general, and saying this one is perfect for schoolyards and blaming America for it. They apparently didn't bother to see that the pistol is NOT designed/made in America, and is in fact illegal here.

    Also to the OP, regardless of some states' laws, this gun is federally illegal to import or manufacture here for civilian use, since the Hughes Amendment.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-04-2012 at 11:35 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Okay.

    If one trigger pull fires 2 separate barrels but no other shots are fired until the trigger is pulled again it is a machine gun.

    If so, then a double barrel shotgun is a machine gun since pulling the second trigger can fire both barrels at once.

    I guess derringers and pepper boxes are machine guns too.

    Sounds logical to me.
    Last edited by mobeewan; 09-05-2012 at 02:30 AM.

  14. #14
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Such a double-barreled shotgun (like my Ward's SxS 16) has two independent triggers/hammers. You cannot fire both barrels with one trigger pull.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-05-2012 at 02:30 AM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    You can on my dad's JC Higgins side by side.

    Pull front trigger first and only left barrel fires. Pull rear trigger first and both barrels fire at the same time.
    Last edited by mobeewan; 09-05-2012 at 02:36 AM.

  16. #16
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Is that by design, or is it broken? I'm assuming the latter. If so, and probably either way, you CAN get in big trouble from the BATF if it is not repaired and they are willing to go after you.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    ...I guess derringers and pepper boxes are machine guns too...
    I don't follow your logic on this one. The ones I know have one trigger, one hammer, and fire one barrel at a time.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member ocholsteroc's Avatar
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    What about those M4 stocks where it wobbles so when you fire, it "bump fires/wobbles" and goes full auto. I seen this stuff on youtube, they sell you a M4 stock to place on any rifle. I heard the ATF doesn't like those rubber band tricks, so how did they get approved to sell such a product as this?
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ocholsteroc View Post
    What about those M4 stocks where it wobbles so when you fire, it "bump fires/wobbles" and goes full auto. I seen this stuff on youtube, they sell you a M4 stock to place on any rifle. I heard the ATF doesn't like those rubber band tricks, so how did they get approved to sell such a product as this?
    The rubber band or shoe string actually becomes part of the trigger/sear mechanism while it is attached. The stock just lets the rifle bounce off your trigger finger at a nice cadence, the same as when you bump fire from your hip using a belt loop.

    I'm not defending their rules, but I do understand them, most of the time.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    Yesterday I saw a guy at the range with a Desert Eagle. They had their sail phone cameras out video-taping how cool they were. It was jamming up and the range boss had trouble clearing the jams. Same type of clientele for this gun. The cool types. No doubt 2 will simultaneously make it's way to a gangsta rap video being held sideways right beside each other. When I find that video I'll post it in the general discussion forum.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

  21. #21
    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    Bump firing is not full auto. You're just using the recoil to bounce the thing off your trigger finger, so the trigger is indeed manipulated for each round fired, albeit quite rapidly. Silly stocks, belt loops or rubber bands are not needed to bump fire.

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