A Positive Concealed Carry / Law Enforcement Encounter

I was returning home from Green Bay on Labor Day evening and had to take a construction detour through the town of Gillett. Coming into town, the speed limit drops from 50 to 25 very suddenly. I apparently wasn't decelerating fast enough as I went thru a speed trap. I was pulled over. I turned off the car, then got my driver's license and concealed carry permit out of my wallet and rolled down my window. I presented both of these to the officer when he came up to the window. He saw the permit and asked me "do you have a carry on you now?" I responded yes, it was on my left hip. As a former Illinoian, I was always told to keep your hands on top of the wheel, in plain sight, which I did. The officer told me I could keep it on me, but asked what I was carrying, both of which rather surprised me. I told him I was carrying a .38 snub.

He returned to his car with my DL, CHL, insurance card, etc. After a few moments he returned and gave me back all my paperwork then further surprised me by giving me a verbal warning instead of a ticket He said my record was clean, thus the warning instead of a citation.

He thanked me for keeping my hands on top of the wheel where he could see them, then advised me that in any future pull-overs I should tell the officer verbally that I was carrying first, then await instructions.

I thanked him for the info and the warning and continued home.

I wonder if I was his first pull-over involving a CHL.

I'd like to think that my cooperation contributed towards the verbal warning. In any case, it was a very positive experience. The officer didn't freak out, nor did he disarm me. Getting out of a ticket was the cherry on the sundae.

ckmorley said:

...pull-overs I should tell the officer verbally that I was carrying first, then await instructions.

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So he's more powerful than the actual law.

Never talk to the police.

HandyHamlet said:

So he's more powerful than the actual law.

Never talk to the police.

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I agree 100%.

The only cards I will ever show are the ones I have to show.
He/she has to ask.
I do not carry for any cops benefit, I carry for mine...

I wish to respectfully disagree with my colleagues. In my own experience, Law Enforcement Officers know (or suspect) that we know our rights. When we voluntarily declare that we have a permit / license and inform the Officer if we are exercising our right - and if so, where the firearm (or other weapon) is located, reasonable LEO's respect that and realize that we are law abiding citizens who wish to get along with everyone - even Law Enforcement. After all, if an armed society is a polite society, should we not be so to the Police as well?

As a former LEO, let me give you the perspective that I have. - I work in a "shall issue" state and understand that citizens have the right to bear arms and not tell me when they do so. I make a traffic stop. Even though I know that citizens of my state do not have to tell me that they have a permit / license, I suddenly spot what I believe to be a handgun on the driver I have just pulled over. I am conflicted. Do I assume that this is a law abiding citizen who means me no harm - or a bad guy who will shoot me the minute the moment is right? A hand moves - and the citizen's life and my life change forever............

I agree that we should not have to "present our papers", but on the practical side of the world today, doesn't an ounce of prevention mean that a pound of cure (or several tons of cure) can be prevented?

Yellow Cat teaches his students to present the permit / license with the driver license.

Your mileage may vary.

Yellow Cat Out-

I teach a middle ground approach. Few things about carrying a gun for protection have absolute rules, so I encourage people to think on their feet so they can adapt to any situation. I tell them to use their own best judgement about volunteering to an LEO whether they are armed during a routine encounter. My personal approach is this: If the LEO is going to see the gun because of how it's worn, or if I'm stepping out of the vehicle or for any reason that makes it fairly certain they're about to become aware of a weapon, then I would inform them. I don't want the first knowledge of the gun to be gained from them spotting it. I'd rather have that information transmitted verbally to them from me. On the other hand, if the LEO is just going to chat, and won't spot the gun, then I do not see the point of elevating their level of stress by pointing out to them that I am armed. If asked about weapons, I would simply be truthful about it. I'm certain that the odds of being asked inWI have increased substantially since concealed carry was enacted. If I remember correctly, the Madison police department has trained their officers to always ask during a traffic stop. Whether they are all doing this in practice I do not know.

Many, if not most people feel stress when talking to the police and the police are experienced at detecting stress and nervousness. You will put LEOs more at ease if you are at ease with them. Trying to play verbal games with the police will usually be counterproductive. I've gotten to know a lot of police officers very well over the years as neighbors, during the course of my work, and during gun training. I suggest that you get used to talking with police and you'll find that they are no different than anyone else you know. Don't be afraid to strike up conversations with cops you encounter. Get to know them if you can. They don't bite. You'll find that you can talk to the police with the same ease that you can talk to the cashier at the grocery store. Regard them as people who are on the same side of the law as you are, and not as adversaries. If there is going to be an adversarial encounter, let it be because they initiated it, not you.

I agree with Shotgun unless required by law I see no reason to inform right off the bat unless one needs to.

If one has to reach any where near your firearm for DL, Registration then informing is a good idea.

reply

Hi Guys,

I lived Chicagoland, IL for 40 years, and the LEO's down there are poorly trained, stuck up and they ARE out to get you.
Verbal warnings simply don't happen down there.
I've been stopped by Chicago cops in the past and I was scared sh!tless because of their demeanor and reputation for hostility.
I was also stopped once in a suburb where my pro-gun bumper stickers engendered a hostile response.

The LEO's up here a far, far nicer, and I have respect for them. They're relaxed, friendly and they don't act like JBT's or Stormtroopers.
I realize that LEO's in Milwaukee (Chicago North) will be different, but I'll cross or burn that bridge if I even come to it.

Even though it's not required, I decided to tell the officer up front in case he asked me to get out of the car, in which case a bulge under my shirt might have been visible.
Showing my "Good Guy Card" up front seemed wiser to me than waiting to see if he saw a weapon, then dealing with his reaction. YMMV.


ckmorley

Well Done, CKMORLEY

In my opinion, you handled the situation perfectly. I, for one, do not believe that cooperating with LEO's in situations like this leads us down a slippery slope. Most of us know when to hold em' and when to fold em'. I also agree with JPM84092 in that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

I am with you ckmorley, common sense trumps.

jpm84092 said:

... reasonable LEO's respect that and realize that we are law abiding citizens who wish to get along with everyone - even Law Enforcement.

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And herein lies the problem. And also with respect for my excellent instructor, the Yellow Cat.

"R-e-a-s-o-n-a-b-l-e"

Milwaukee Girl, x2 now anyone? Madison 5? Mr. Frank Rock, also x2 now?

We have no crystal ball to predict the outcome of any encounter. Therefore our only option is to play it safe, be respectful, and do things by the book. It has been hashed out here for years why never talking to police is standard procedure. And a big part of "by the book". Just like carrying a recording device. I personally will be sticking to the book as written by the experiences of members here.

ckmorley said:

The LEO's up here a far, far nicer, and I have respect for them. They're relaxed, friendly and they don't act like JBT's or Stormtroopers.

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You need to do your homework my friend. Good cops are everywhere. Bad cops are everywhere. Hence the existence of this forum.



Not surrendering CCL information immediately is in no way indicative of one's level of respect for police. Waiting for an officer to ask is simply following Wi law.

I agree with yellow cat and shotgun. I know my county deputies, not all of them but as many as I come across. I routenly visit my sheriff and keep a dialog with her. I also know my constitutional originalist leo VERY WELL. He comes over to my mom's home in Prescott for meals and I call him often. He has always given me ammo for the shotgun and now my 357. I used to know the other cops in Prescott but since I moved, some of them moved too. My leo friend will be the police chief of that town next yr. I know that the DOJ rules on declaring conflict with the state law, however best to let them know esp when you are in a different part of the state where no one knows you. Good advice both of you.

ckmorley said:

The LEO's up here a far, far nicer, and I have respect for them.
They're relaxed, friendly and they don't act like JBT's or Stormtroopers.
I realize that LEO's in Milwaukee (Chicago North) will be different...

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I'm glad I'm not the only one to think this.

How are we to know if our friendly & helpful "hi officer, I have a permission slip" will lead to an encounter like the OP (seems to have gone quite well) or something more along the lines of Milwaukee, Brookfield, Madison, Racine (x2), West Allis (x2)...?

Yes, those were mostly pre-permission slips.
But I don't think the attitude of the officers, or departments, magically changed 00:00:01 on 01NOV11.

As for officers who routinely ask if someone has a cc license, how does that relate to a traffic stop?
Being armed has no bearing on whether or not you ran a stop sign.
And if you're OC in the car, do you still show them your carry license?
The law only says you're required to if the officer has lawful authority & you're carrying concealed.

Would it make their job easier? From their point of view, probably.
(Then again, how much paperwork goes along with calling in backup & doing a felony GET-OUT-OF-THE-CAR-AND-ON-THE-GROUND-NOW!!! stop? Plus the arrest report, etc., needed to justify their actions.)

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER verbally notify an officcer. If you want to volunteer that information before they ask, just give them your CCL and let them ask you.

BROKENSPROKET said:

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER verbally notify an officcer. If you want to volunteer that information before they ask, just give them your CCL and let them ask you.

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I subscribe to the BrokenSproket method, An instance of a law-abiding citizen who exercises their 2A rights while speaking with a LEO, I got to say; "What they don't know won't hurt them"

During my last traffic stop, the officers (all 3 of them) got so focused on a single empty 12 ounce brown glass bottle that was laying on the floor of my truck, they failed to see the 6 fully loaded 30-rd AR15 magazines clearly laying on my dashboard, a 50-rd box of winchester 40S&W ammo on the passenger seat, a cardboard shipping box with a WASR rifle inside of it laying in the back seat with the owners manual hanging out.
When they demanded that I exit my vehicle, they did not notice the bulge created by a 4.5" XDm in a clevelands holster on my left side sitting at about 7:00, I was walked to the rear-tire area of my truck while they turned their backs on me to continue to shine their flashlights through my windows and go on and on about that damn 12 ounce brown glass bottle laying on the floor.
At this point during the investigation with 3 very focused officers, (focusing on the least important thing) I am not about to voluntarily disclose that I am armed, especially at 2:45 AM on a summer holiday weekend in a tourist area with half the state of Illinois in town.
I am still considering talking to the chief about how these guys need to widen their field of view when making an investigatory stop, maybe he can use this as a teaching experience and possibly save a life or two with them not making stupid mistakes like that again.

What was the bottle???? http://www.thewitbeveragecompany.com/images/stories/nutri/carusosdarkvanillacream.jpg

Nutczak said:

I subscribe to the BrokenSproket method, An instance of a law-abiding citizen who exercises their 2A rights while speaking with a LEO, I got to say; "What they don't know won't hurt them"

During my last traffic stop, the officers (all 3 of them) got so focused on a single empty 12 ounce brown glass bottle that was laying on the floor of my truck, they failed to see the 6 fully loaded 30-rd AR15 magazines clearly laying on my dashboard, a 50-rd box of winchester 40S&W ammo on the passenger seat, a cardboard shipping box with a WASR rifle inside of it laying in the back seat with the owners manual hanging out.
When they demanded that I exit my vehicle, they did not notice the bulge created by a 4.5" XDm in a clevelands holster on my left side sitting at about 7:00, I was walked to the rear-tire area of my truck while they turned their backs on me to continue to shine their flashlights through my windows and go on and on about that damn 12 ounce brown glass bottle laying on the floor.
At this point during the investigation with 3 very focused officers, (focusing on the least important thing) I am not about to voluntarily disclose that I am armed, especially at 2:45 AM on a summer holiday weekend in a tourist area with half the state of Illinois in town.
I am still considering talking to the chief about how these guys need to widen their field of view when making an investigatory stop, maybe he can use this as a teaching experience and possibly save a life or two with them not making stupid mistakes like that again.

What was the bottle???? http://www.thewitbeveragecompany.com/images/stories/nutri/carusosdarkvanillacream.jpg

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now that was one hell of a cream soda

they failed to see the 6 fully loaded 30-rd AR15 magazines clearly laying on my dashboard, a 50-rd box of winchester 40S&W ammo on the passenger seat, a cardboard shipping box with a WASR rifle inside of it laying in the back seat with the owners manual hanging out.
When they demanded that I exit my vehicle, they did not notice the bulge created by a 4.5" XDm in a clevelands holster on my left side sitting at about 7:00,



oh!oh! i know this joke! after seeing your goodies they asked you: what are you afraid of? and you answered: not a damn thing officer. God i LOVE that one!

jpm84092 said:

I wish to respectfully disagree with my colleagues. In my own experience, Law Enforcement Officers know (or suspect) that we know our rights. When we voluntarily declare that we have a permit / license and inform the Officer if we are exercising our right - and if so, where the firearm (or other weapon) is located, reasonable LEO's respect that and realize that we are law abiding citizens who wish to get along with everyone - even Law Enforcement. After all, if an armed society is a polite society, should we not be so to the Police as well?

As a former LEO, let me give you the perspective that I have. - I work in a "shall issue" state and understand that citizens have the right to bear arms and not tell me when they do so. I make a traffic stop. Even though I know that citizens of my state do not have to tell me that they have a permit / license, I suddenly spot what I believe to be a handgun on the driver I have just pulled over. I am conflicted. Do I assume that this is a law abiding citizen who means me no harm - or a bad guy who will shoot me the minute the moment is right? A hand moves - and the citizen's life and my life change forever............

I agree that we should not have to "present our papers", but on the practical side of the world today, doesn't an ounce of prevention mean that a pound of cure (or several tons of cure) can be prevented?

Yellow Cat teaches his students to present the permit / license with the driver license.

Your mileage may vary.

Yellow Cat Out-

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you should treat anyone you encounter as a potential danger. remember it's the handgun you can't see that is dangerous

Ok so I guess this is a good place to ask this. Why are so many people so adamant about not talking to the police? I just don't understand it. Me personally would think that it would be best to cooperate with them. It makes everything easier.

Here is my 2 cents. I have 2 family members who are both former cops (father and uncle) and a very close friend who is a Wisconsin State Trooper. I have discussed this with all of them at length and I get basically the same response from them all. They all say that whenever they encountered someone who was unwilling to cooperate fully or just the opposite, go out of there way to tell them everything, were generally the ones that they found not to trust. Those were the ones who they found to be possible trouble. My friend the trooper says that those are the ones that he tends to watch closely and relays the message to the local PD about them and to watch them a little more closely. Along with that they are more likely to give you a ticket for some stupid minor infraction.

So my belief is that if I were to get pulled over while carrying my sidearm I would notify the officer while I hand them my information that I am carrying. Makes both of our lives easier.

it basically boils down to do what you feel is comfortable
some people have no issue with exercising all their rights no matter what intent the officer has good bad or other
some people play it by ear if the cop is decent and polite so are they and they comply 100%
some people let the cop violate any right they can
do what you feel is comfortable and you should be good to go with the obvious exemptions MKEgal , the mad 5, and some others knows all about

but i think there is one thing that all who have spoken here can agree about record every confrontation with every authority figure you come across

XDM40 said:

Ok so I guess this is a good place to ask this. Why are so many people so adamant about not talking to the police? I just don't understand it. Me personally would think that it would be best to cooperate with them. It makes everything easier.

Here is my 2 cents. I have 2 family members who are both former cops (father and uncle) and a very close friend who is a Wisconsin State Trooper. I have discussed this with all of them at length and I get basically the same response from them all. They all say that whenever they encountered someone who was unwilling to cooperate fully or just the opposite, go out of there way to tell them everything, were generally the ones that they found not to trust. Those were the ones who they found to be possible trouble. My friend the trooper says that those are the ones that he tends to watch closely and relays the message to the local PD about them and to watch them a little more closely. Along with that they are more likely to give you a ticket for some stupid minor infraction.

So my belief is that if I were to get pulled over while carrying my sidearm I would notify the officer while I hand them my information that I am carrying. Makes both of our lives easier.

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maybe you haven't seen these videos

http://youtu.be/i8z7NC5sgik