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Thread: DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

    I OC'd a holstered handgun today at Pontiac Lake Shooting Range, shooting some slug ammo from my shotgun. The range officer (RO) informed me that an "administrative rule" on concealed/open carry at DNR ranges had recently come out, and is as follows:

    If a person shows the range officer that they have a CPL, they may carry concealed and/or openly at the range, including downrange when placing targets.

    A person not having a CPL (or, I guess, not having notified the RO that they have a CPL), may carry openly except downrange. Before going downrange, their firearm must be at their station, unloaded and action open.

    The RO said he did not have a hard copy of this rule, but when he got it he would post it at the bulletin board at the tower.

    Anyone else heard of this? It seems to unnecessarily infringe on non-CPL's rights, and increase the chance of an unintended discharge.
    Last edited by DanM; 09-03-2012 at 11:37 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I OC'd a holstered handgun today at Pontiac Lake Shooting Range, shooting some slug ammo from my shotgun. The range officer (RO) informed me that an "administrative rule" on concealed/open carry at DNR ranges had recently come out, and is as follows:

    If a person shows the range officer that they have a CPL, they may carry concealed and/or openly at the range, including downrange when placing targets.

    A person not having a CPL (or, I guess, not having notified the RO that they have a CPL), may carry openly except downrange. Before going downrange, their firearm must be at their station, unloaded and action open.

    The RO said he did not have a hard copy of this rule, but when he got it he would post it at the bulletin board at the tower.

    Anyone else heard of this? It seems to unnecessarily infringe on non-CPL's rights, and increase the chance of an unintended discharge.
    The rules actually appear more strict than what the RO indicated.

    See R 299.673 Use of firearms on designated shooting ranges; prohibited acts.

    Here: http://www7.dleg.state.mi.us/orr/Fil..._AdminCode.pdf
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

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    DNR is a waste of money. Kill it, DNR does mean do not resuscitate after all.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I OC'd a holstered handgun today at Pontiac Lake Shooting Range, shooting some slug ammo from my shotgun. The range officer (RO) informed me that an "administrative rule" on concealed/open carry at DNR ranges had recently come out, and is as follows:

    If a person shows the range officer that they have a CPL, they may carry concealed and/or openly at the range, including downrange when placing targets.

    A person not having a CPL (or, I guess, not having notified the RO that they have a CPL), may carry openly except downrange. Before going downrange, their firearm must be at their station, unloaded and action open.

    The RO said he did not have a hard copy of this rule, but when he got it he would post it at the bulletin board at the tower.

    Anyone else heard of this? It seems to unnecessarily infringe on non-CPL's rights, and increase the chance of an unintended discharge.
    Brian Jeffs and MGO worked with them on these rules. Brian tried to get them to drop the CPL crap to no avail.
    Last edited by TheQ; 09-04-2012 at 12:50 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Brian Jeffs and MGO worked with them on these rules. Brian tried to get them to drop the CPL crap to no avail.

    The emboldened part is news to me.
    That part is not in the rule I cited... the rule states :

    R 299.673 Use of firearms on designated shooting ranges; prohibited acts.
    Rule 3. On a designated shooting range, a person shall not do any of the following:
    (a) Possess a loaded firearm, except at established shooting stations on the firing line, unless a person is
    licensed in accordance with 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.422.
    (b) Discharge a firearm, except at established shooting stations at approved targets.
    (c) Discharge a firearm, except when wearing hearing and eye protection.
    History: 1979 AC; 2010 AACS.
    see: http://www7.dleg.state.mi.us/orr/Adm...artment&Dpt=NR

    (last modified in 2010 and not listed as up for revision at the above website)
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-04-2012 at 12:24 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    That part is not in the rule I cited... he's making it up as the website didn't even have that section up for revision.

    see: http://www7.dleg.state.mi.us/orr/Adm...artment&Dpt=NR
    Website may not be updated? I know Brian Jeffs and Mike Theide were talking to the DNR about 3 or 4 months ago. It wouldn't surprise me if the rule JUST got made within the past few weeks.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    I can see why they made the rules the way they did. They don't want loaded guns being brought down range during a cease fire by some dumbass. For safety, it's best to keep the guns that are being shot unloaded with actions open at the shooters station. Then they considered "well, what about guns for self defense", and then decided to reference a CPL as an exclusion instead of wording it better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kubel View Post
    I can see why they made the rules the way they did. They don't want loaded guns being brought down range during a cease fire by some dumbass. For safety, it's best to keep the guns that are being shot unloaded with actions open at the shooters station. Then they considered "well, what about guns for self defense", and then decided to reference a CPL as an exclusion instead of wording it better.

    No! Of all the places that I demand to respect my gun rights, it is gun places. This is just another example of the .gov not respecting my rights or my safety. Especially when they pull the CPL BS. Not that we need a justification to exercise our rights, but there has been at least one murder at a range that I know of. I simply do not turn my back on my gun at any time. Anything less is not only foolishness, but is irresponsible. Not only are you denied your rights and disarmed, you have now left a deadly weapon out of your control, in close proximity to ammunition that can be used against you and others, or simply stolen.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-04-2012 at 04:30 AM.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    You can DEMAND respect for your rights, and they can DEMAND you leave, Or you can get a CPL

    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No! Of all the places that I demand to respect my gun rights, it is gun places. This is just another example of the .gov not respecting my rights or my safety. Especially when they pull the CPL BS. Not that we need a justification to exercise our rights, but there has been at least one murder at a range that I know of. I simply do not turn my back on my gun at any time. Anything less is not only foolishness, but is irresponsible. Not only are you denied your rights and disarmed, you have now left a deadly weapon out of your control, in close proximity to ammunition that can be used against you and others, or simply stolen.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    After what I've been through, they can keep their CPL.

    BTW, there is no law requiring you to show your CPL at the range, unless you are CC.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    After what I've been through, they can keep their CPL.

    BTW, there is no law requiring you to show your CPL at the range, unless you are CC.
    That will be an issue, you have no obligation to show a CPL. But they can ask you to leave or abide by their rules. Then a person would need to take it to court to challenge it.
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    Some of the well established people on MGO are saying that its a preemption issue. These are well respected highly educated members, but I thought DNR was state, therefore preemption wouldn't apply.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Website may not be updated? I know Brian Jeffs and Mike Theide were talking to the DNR about 3 or 4 months ago. It wouldn't surprise me if the rule JUST got made within the past few weeks.
    Mike and I sent emails to the DNR range administrator asking for clarification. I know the Administrator was on vacation and may not be back yet. Before he left he did say they were close to posting the rule change. Mike nor I received the final rule for review.

    But please keep in mind that this is some progress as OC was not allowed at all. I don't recall that Mike or I discussed having to have a CPL to OC downrange with the DNR. So this is new to us.

    This is not the only time the DNR has used a CPL (privilege) excuse to infringe on everyones right to bear arms. They do it for bow hunting as well. Shame on them for this mind set.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Tallbear over at MGO had this update:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallbear over at MGO
    This is the signage that MGO agreed upon for carrying while on the range. I've asked my contacts in the DNR to clarify what happened.

    NOTICE TO RANGE CUSTOMERS: All “Range firearms” must be unloaded and enclosed in a case to enter. Open Carry (OC) and Concealed Carry (with a CPL) is allowed; But only if you are carrying a pistol for self defense and while engaging in other range activities i.e. shooting another firearm, etc. While OCing the firearm must remain holstered or secured in a manner that will prevent accidental discharge (i.e. prevent trigger movement, disengagement of safety or the cocking of the hammer).

    If/when the OC carried firearm is to be fired at the range then all range rules apply and the firearm becomes a “range firearm” and must be handle in accordance with all applicable range rules.The open carry of a "Michigan Pistol" will be addressed on an individual basis and is at the discretion of the Range Officer. There is no "OC" of long guns allowed on the range.
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...5&postcount=11
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    My gun never becomes a range firearm, whatever that means, my gun is my firearm.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Tallbear over at MGO had this update:


    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...5&postcount=11
    That appears reasonable. And no mention of cpl requirement.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    I don't recall that Mike or I discussed having to have a CPL to OC downrange with the DNR. So this is new to us.
    My guess is that the DNR officer misunderstood the memo. Reading comprehension seems to be a vanishing skill.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 09-04-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    My guess is that the DNR officer misunderstood the memo. Reading comprehension seems to be a vanishing skill.

    Bronson
    i agree. breeding contraptions are rare.
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I OC'd a holstered handgun today at Pontiac Lake Shooting Range, shooting some slug ammo from my shotgun. The range officer (RO) informed me that an "administrative rule" on concealed/open carry at DNR ranges had recently come out, and is as follows:

    If a person shows the range officer that they have a CPL, they may carry concealed and/or openly at the range, including downrange when placing targets.

    A person not having a CPL (or, I guess, not having notified the RO that they have a CPL), may carry openly except downrange. Before going downrange, their firearm must be at their station, unloaded and action open.

    The RO said he did not have a hard copy of this rule, but when he got it he would post it at the bulletin board at the tower.

    Anyone else heard of this? It seems to unnecessarily infringe on non-CPL's rights, and increase the chance of an unintended discharge.
    Last year they made me go back to the vehicle and place my OCed gun in a case before they would let me shoot! I guess things have changed since then!
    Today JESUS would tell me to sell my coat and buy two Springfield XD Compact 45acp's!

    NRA LIFER,GOA,MOC Inc.,CLSD,MCRGO,UAW! MOLON LABE!!

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    From experience....

    To violate their administrative rules would simply be a civil infraction. They do not hold the weight of State Law.

    A summer or so ago, I was ticketed for "having more than one round in the gun" at the range. Neither the on site range rules, nor the DNR webpage rules stated that the range in question was "one round" at a time. At the time, the officer said the ticket was a misdemeanor. Which it wasnt. And I was told by the magistrate that the admin rules are not state law.

    The DNR doesnt own the range any more than the police own the sidewalk. They are there for the illusion of safety. Therefore, if one were ticketed for carrying at the range, a preemption argument, IMHO, would suffice.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    My guess is that the DNR officer misunderstood the memo. Reading comprehension seems to be a vanishing skill.

    Bronson
    Well, when they decline to hire smart people, that tends to happen....

    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    324.504:
    (6) The department shall not promulgate or enforce a rule that prohibits an individual who is licensed or exempt from licensure under 1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435, from carrying a pistol in compliance with that act, whether concealed or otherwise, on property under the control of the department.
    A license to purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol is 28.422, no?
    28.422 is between 28.421 and 28.435, no?


    Handling "Michigan pistols" differently is ridiculous. We have one definition of "pistol" for the purpose of that act, and no clear line between "Michigan pistols" and whatever other sort of pistols one might have in Michigan.
    Michigan pistols, holster requirements, etc. make no difference. If you're in compliance with (1927 PA 372, MCL 28.421 to 28.435), they do not have the authority to make or enforce a rule that says otherwise.

    Any detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol downrange is no different from detainment or harassment for lawful carry of a (Michigan or not) pistol on a sidewalk.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Therefore, if one were ticketed for carrying at the range, a preemption argument, IMHO, would suffice.
    except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

    State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I don't personally care what the rules are, I don't suggest using DNR run ranges. Their ****** baggery is far too out of line for me to see any sense in it. Much better to find a spot on state land and blast away.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    DNR "Administrative Rule" Re: Carry at gun ranges

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    except MCL 123.1101 makes no mention of state agencies.

    State Agencies get their power from enabling statutes. You could ask them where in that statute they get that power....but MCL 123.1102 wouldn't apply.
    A better argument could be made under MCL 324.504
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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