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Thread: The most difficult legal question ever posted on OCDO

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    The most difficult legal question ever posted on OCDO

    So the other night I'm sitting in the living room, and my mom loves watching this TLC show called Abbey and Brittany which documents two teenage girls who are conjoined twin sisters. Now me, I don't normally watch TLC, I was just waiting for the new episode of Grimm to come on, but anyway. In this episode of A&B they're taking a roadtrip to chicago and mention how both of the conjoined twins have driver's licenses and they each have to control a different part of the car (one does the pedals, other does steering, and one does heat and the other does turn signals, man would that SUCK if they had to drive a stickshift like that?)

    well so with this in mind.

    If a pair of conjoined twins wanted to carry concealed, would they both need CPLs?
    What if one half consents to a search and/or detention while the other twin is trying to assert their rights?
    If one twin were convicted of a crime, would that one be punished for felon in possession if the other half carries and has no background?

    Who would any citation be addressed to?

    If they're legally two different individuals, would detaining or arresting them for an offense commited by one be an unlawful arrest/false imprisonment of the other?

    What say you?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post

    If a pair of conjoined twins wanted to carry concealed, would they both need CPLs?
    What if one half consents to a search and/or detention while the other twin is trying to assert their rights?
    If one twin were convicted of a crime, would that one be punished for felon in possession if the other half carries and has no background?

    Who would any citation be addressed to?

    If they're legally two different individuals, would detaining or arresting them for an offense commited by one be an unlawful arrest/false imprisonment of the other?

    What say you?
    Grimm? lol Yes they both need CPLs ... and no , no false arrest/detainment. Imprisonment? They both go...for being an accessory of course.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    If a pair of conjoined twins wanted to carry concealed, would they both need CPLs? - Yes, just as the state required both sides to get a driver's license. Now, if only one side wanted to carry concealed, only that side would need a CPL, since each separately controls the volitional activity on their side. In practical terms, they would need to coperatively agree since one side cannot go anywhere without the other side. If one side wants to carry and the other side is anti-gun then for all practical purposes it's a stalemate.

    What if one half consents to a search and/or detention while the other twin is trying to assert their rights? - For all practical purposes the side "asserting their rights" as you put it will be detained and searched along with the other side whose behavior prompted the stop and reason for searching. Even though each side independently controls their side I would not expect a cop on the street to consider that a possibility. Even if the cop considered the possibility that one side could act independently of the other, the cop is going to cite "officer safety" in searching both sides.


    If one twin were convicted of a crime, would that one be punished for felon in possession if the other half carries and has no background? - If one side is convicted of a felony and the other, non-felon, side decided to carry and were able to maintain control of the firearm then the felon side should not be considered in possession or even in constructive possession. Each side acts independently and cannot reach over to the other side. The question I would have fun watching being answered is how to keep the felon side from viewing the combination for wherever the non-felon side locks up her firearm when not carrying/holding it. And even if the felon side did see the combination the non-felon side could prevent her from gaining possession of the firearm simply by not cooperatively moving.

    Who would any citation be addressed to? - To the side alleged to have been the transgressor. My question is, after determining which side of the body committed the infraction, does it matter in terms of any punishment imposed? One side could prevent the other side from driving under the influence, for instance, just by refusing to cooperate in getting into the vehicle. On the other hand, since drinking by one will effect the other, they would both be guilty if they agreed to cooperatively drive after only one side did the actual drinking. Lock one side up and you effectively lock up the other side. Unless the non-guilty side wants to be physically separated, what happens to one happens to the other.

    If they're legally two different individuals, would detaining or arresting them for an offense commited by one be an unlawful arrest/false imprisonment of the other? - Nope! You need to undestand the difference between two sides and two individuals. They are both cooperatively responsible for anything the body does, as one side cannot do anything without the cooperation and assistance of the other.

    The requirement for each to get their own drivers license goes to the issue of each one controlling only one half of the body. For almost all activities they must cooperatively coordinate voluntary bodily activity, which meant that each half had to demonstrate knowledge and proficiency in the activities of driving associated with her specific half of the body. If one passed the test and the other did not, the one who passed the test could not operate all of the controls independently and thus drive "by herself". In my mind I see that pretty much any activity that one side tries to do that is illegal can be stopped or countered by the other side refusing to cooperate. If, for example, the right side wants to speed and pushes down on the acclerator the left side can counter by pushing down on the brakes.

    How you thought this (these, actually) would be the most difficult question(s) ever posed on OCDO escapes me. Once you understand that two separate personalities (sides) controlling one half of the body must act cooperatively in order to do almost everything, the answers fall like over-ripe fruit.

    stay safe.
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    Wow... so many issues it makes my head hurt. My GF was watching the same show last night and the first thought that popped into my head after hearing that each controlled a side of their body was... how do they decide who wipes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by georg jetson View Post
    Wow... so many issues it makes my head hurt. My GF was watching the same show last night and the first thought that popped into my head after hearing that each controlled a side of their body was... how do they decide who wipes?
    Obama or Romney will take care of it for them by creating another government program.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Grimm? A & B? Uh, does you mother often come over to your place to watch her show(s)?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Better question, which one is hassled for OCing?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Grimm? A & B? Uh, does you mother often come over to your place to watch her show(s)?
    Nope, I still live at home for now, I have adequate savings to finish my two year college so I've been allowed to stay while I finish that

    I don't generally watch TLC shows.

    But Grimm is pretty good, by pretty good I mean I don't care what the show is about as long a it's a mainstream primetime production that features some location in the pacific northwest
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    There are two types of revolvers: Smith & Wesson, and future razor blades.
    Oh! That's why I cut myself on some of the precisely machined internals of my Ruger. Now I understand.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Oh! That's why I cut myself on some of the precisely machined internals of my Ruger. Now I understand.
    Tis merely a joke I made up to show my brand loyalty to S&W. I am a very big fan of Ruger too, although I've never actually fired a ruger revolver, I've fired several Ruger rifles, and a Ruger P-345 semi.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Grimm? A & B? Uh, does you mother often come over to your place to watch her show(s)?
    E-X-A-C-T-L-Y !!! Matlock too ... but he answers all his legal queries in his show I guess. How about Golden Girls?

    Great post !

    Keep the faith!

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    E-X-A-C-T-L-Y !!! Matlock too ... but he answers all his legal queries in his show I guess. How about Golden Girls?

    Great post !

    Keep the faith!
    I was simply posing a hypothetical based on a television show, what's wrong with that?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    When a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it.......is the woman always right?
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    When a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it.......is the woman always right?
    Hang on, let me ask my wife.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Even deeper legal twist.....What if one of them becomes a prohibited person?? LOL
    Lower the crime rate by lowering the criminal survival rate!
    When people say 'God Bless America' I'm sure He says, "I gave you Texas!"

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    let's take it to the end game.

    If they shot each other, would it be a double murder, or a double suicide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brimstone Baritone View Post
    Hang on, let me ask my wife.
    Unfortunately, I think I know the answer.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
    ~Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Nope, I still live at home for now, I have adequate savings to finish my two year college so I've been allowed to stay while I finish that

    I don't generally watch TLC shows.

    But Grimm is pretty good, by pretty good I mean I don't care what the show is about as long a it's a mainstream primetime production that features some location in the pacific northwest
    Good luck on the two year degree and shoot for the four year degree. I had the bucks but my mom and dad gave me the boot anyway. Actually, had my own house but I hate to cook or do laundry.....thus the reason I am now married.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    They are both cooperatively responsible for anything the body does, as one side cannot do anything without the cooperation and assistance of the other.
    I can think of several actions that one might take independently, with no cooperation from the other, or maybe not even her knowledge. If Right Side shoplifts an item by sticking it in her right pocket and Left Side doesn't even see it, can Lefty be jailed along with her sister?

    If Lefty decides to suddenly slap or stab someone standing within arm's reach before Righty could react to prevent it, does Righty get tossed in the clink?

    If Lefty is being arrested and Righty passively refuses to put her hand behind their back to be handcuffed, is Righty guilty of resisting arrest even though she's not the one being arrested?

    Fascinating topic of discussion.

    For those not familiar with these twins, it is effectly one body with two heads. Two arms, two legs, one torso, and two heads. A very extreme case of being conjoined, from the neck(s) down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If a pair of conjoined twins wanted to carry concealed, would they both need CPLs? - Yes, just as the state required both sides to get a driver's license. Now, if only one side wanted to carry concealed, only that side would need a CPL, since each separately controls the volitional activity on their side. In practical terms, they would need to coperatively agree since one side cannot go anywhere without the other side. If one side wants to carry and the other side is anti-gun then for all practical purposes it's a stalemate.

    What if one half consents to a search and/or detention while the other twin is trying to assert their rights? - For all practical purposes the side "asserting their rights" as you put it will be detained and searched along with the other side whose behavior prompted the stop and reason for searching. Even though each side independently controls their side I would not expect a cop on the street to consider that a possibility. Even if the cop considered the possibility that one side could act independently of the other, the cop is going to cite "officer safety" in searching both sides.


    If one twin were convicted of a crime, would that one be punished for felon in possession if the other half carries and has no background? - If one side is convicted of a felony and the other, non-felon, side decided to carry and were able to maintain control of the firearm then the felon side should not be considered in possession or even in constructive possession. Each side acts independently and cannot reach over to the other side. The question I would have fun watching being answered is how to keep the felon side from viewing the combination for wherever the non-felon side locks up her firearm when not carrying/holding it. And even if the felon side did see the combination the non-felon side could prevent her from gaining possession of the firearm simply by not cooperatively moving.

    Who would any citation be addressed to? - To the side alleged to have been the transgressor. My question is, after determining which side of the body committed the infraction, does it matter in terms of any punishment imposed? One side could prevent the other side from driving under the influence, for instance, just by refusing to cooperate in getting into the vehicle. On the other hand, since drinking by one will effect the other, they would both be guilty if they agreed to cooperatively drive after only one side did the actual drinking. Lock one side up and you effectively lock up the other side. Unless the non-guilty side wants to be physically separated, what happens to one happens to the other.

    If they're legally two different individuals, would detaining or arresting them for an offense commited by one be an unlawful arrest/false imprisonment of the other? - Nope! You need to undestand the difference between two sides and two individuals. They are both cooperatively responsible for anything the body does, as one side cannot do anything without the cooperation and assistance of the other.

    The requirement for each to get their own drivers license goes to the issue of each one controlling only one half of the body. For almost all activities they must cooperatively coordinate voluntary bodily activity, which meant that each half had to demonstrate knowledge and proficiency in the activities of driving associated with her specific half of the body. If one passed the test and the other did not, the one who passed the test could not operate all of the controls independently and thus drive "by herself". In my mind I see that pretty much any activity that one side tries to do that is illegal can be stopped or countered by the other side refusing to cooperate. If, for example, the right side wants to speed and pushes down on the acclerator the left side can counter by pushing down on the brakes.

    How you thought this (these, actually) would be the most difficult question(s) ever posed on OCDO escapes me. Once you understand that two separate personalities (sides) controlling one half of the body must act cooperatively in order to do almost everything, the answers fall like over-ripe fruit.

    stay safe.
    How is it you say that one could not be convicted of a crime without the other, yet you also say one could still carry a concealed firearm if the other were a convicted felon? If it takes both to commit a crime as you said, then both would be charged for said crime. If one were charged with a felonious crime, then by your logic both would be, so neither would be able to possess.

    I believe one could commit a crime without the others approval. It only takes one hand to hit someone, or it only takes one hand to grab something off the rack as you are walking by and stuff it in a pocket. There are plenty of ways that one could commit a crime without the others assistance or approval.

    I would be interested to see how the justice system would handle such a bizzare case.

    I would really like to know who has feeling and who doesn't when they are doing adult activities! I wonder if the sensation is split there as well? I'm not being gross, I am truly intrigued. Wiki says that each one can feel their half of body and nothing on the other side. These girls have 2 stomachs, 2 spinal cords, 4 lungs, with one lung slightly fused to the other, 1 liver, 3 kidneys, 2 gall-bladders, 1 bladder, and 1 set of reproductive organs. I have never heard of these girls, and now I am truly intrigued. Everything I have ever heard of conjoined twins was younger ones that always died at a young age from heart defects and other medical ailments.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Nope, I still live at home for now, I have adequate savings to finish my two year college so I've been allowed to stay while I finish that

    I don't generally watch TLC shows.

    But Grimm is pretty good, by pretty good I mean I don't care what the show is about as long a it's a mainstream primetime production that features some location in the pacific northwest
    Enjoy it while it lasts! Once you hit the real world and have 5 or 10 bills you have to pay every week, up keep on your home, up keep on the vehicles, insurance on the vehicles, kids to take care of, school supplies, etc., it gets tough.

    I remember people telling me the same thing and I always replied along the lines of I couldn't wait to get out. Now, I would do anything to go back! HAHA. I am dealing with all that, working a near full time job, and going to college above full-time status. I would give anything to be 18 again and do it all over; although I wouldn't trade my kids for anything!

    Whatever you do, stay in school!
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasjayhawk View Post
    let's take it to the end game.

    If they shot each other, would it be a double murder, or a double suicide?
    The serious thing is, if one did take a bullet to the heart and died, the other would continue to live for some time. How would you manage living with your dead sister connected to you? Each has their own heart, so the side that was dead would not have blood flowing, and they would start to decompose.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Would it be one or two deductions on filing my taxes if they were my daughters?.......mmmmmmm
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  24. #24
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Would it be one or two deductions on filing my taxes if they were my daughters?.......mmmmmmm
    ......................... hmmmmm..........

    Go for two.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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