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Thread: quick question from fort lauderdale

  1. #1
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    quick question from fort lauderdale

    have ccwp for florida and florida is not an oc state but would i be allowed to oc in michigan being our states reciprocate ?
    or must i keep in concealed like i must in florida?
    thanks in advance michiganders
    heheh i lived up there in the 60s and 70s

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle eyes View Post
    have ccwp for florida and florida is not an oc state but would i be allowed to oc in michigan being our states reciprocate ?
    or must i keep in concealed like i must in florida?
    thanks in advance michiganders
    heheh i lived up there in the 60s and 70s
    You have to abide by the law of the state you are physically present in. MI allows for OC, so, yes, when visiting MI, you can OC, while abiding by MI law.

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    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    as hermannr said, yes you may OC while in MI. But I would strongly suggest you brush up on MI firearm laws before you do, there are many differences from state to state.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Hi eagle eyes, Bikenut from the MI forum asked if I could help out with some cites to show you why it's ok. I'll do my best but you'll have to bear with me because MI gun laws are a dizzying labryinth of stupidity.

    Even though you specifically asked about OC I'm also going to go into CC first because for all intents and purposes MI regards carrying in your vehicle as CC.

    For brevity's sake I'm only going to post the relevant sections of each law. I highy encourage you to go to the links and read them in their entirety.

    MCL 750.227

    (2) A person shall not carry a pistol concealed on or about his or her person, or, whether concealed or otherwise, in a vehicle operated or occupied by the person, except in his or her dwelling house, place of business, or on other land possessed by the person, without a license to carry the pistol as provided by law and if licensed, shall not carry the pistol in a place or manner inconsistent with any restrictions upon such license.
    MCL 750.231a

    750.231a Exceptions to MCL 750.227(2); definitions.Sec. 231a.

    (1) Subsection (2) of section 227 does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) To a person holding a valid license to carry a pistol concealed upon his or her person issued by his or her state of residence except where the pistol is carried in nonconformance with a restriction appearing on the license.
    So in order to carry your pistol concealed or in a vehicle in MI you must have a valid CC permit from your state of residence. That last bit is important because it's the only time in MI law that I've been able to find that requires the permit be from your home state.

    One of the most difficult things for people new to OC in MI to wrap their brains around is the fact that MI has two separate and distinct lists of gun free zones. One that is a general "no firearms," which is often referred to as the OC Pistol Free Zones (PFZs) and one that is specifically for licensed concealed carry. Remember they are two distinct lists each with their own quirks.

    First the CC PFZs.

    MCL 28.425o

    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsections (1) and (2); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.

    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

    (2) Subject to subsection (5), an individual shall not carry a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology on any of the premises described in subsection (1).

    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol in violation of R 432.1212 or a successor rule of the Michigan administrative code promulgated under the Michigan gaming control and revenue act, 1996 IL 1, MCL 432.201 to 432.226.

    (4) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    So by the wording of the first subsection of this law it only applies to a legally carried concealed pistol....so if your pistol is not concealed this list doesn't apply to you.

    Next we have the list of OC PFZs.

    MCL 750.234d

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.Sec. 234d.

    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    Notice that there is no residency requirement attached to the subsection 2(c) exemption. As long as you have a valid concealed pistol license from this or another state you may OC in these areas.

    So if we OC the CC PFZs don't apply to us and if we have a valid CC permit the OC PFZs don't apply to us either. This leaves a CC permit holder who is OCing free to carry their pistol in almost all of MI's PFZs. Court houses/rooms/offices are still PFZs due to an administrative order and, of course, all Federal buildings like Post Offices are still a no-go.

    MI has also pre-empted the creation and enforcement of firearms laws so that cities, townships, counties, etc. may not create or enforce their own laws in regards to firearm possession.

    MCL 123.1102

    123.1102 Regulation of pistols or other firearms.Sec. 2.

    A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer, transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.
    That should get you going. There are other laws that pertain to possession on school grounds and alcohol consumption while carrying and how to legally transport your firearm if you have been drinking but this post is probably long enough as it is If you need any of that info just ask and I or somebody else will be happy to provide it.

    Here's a couple of helpful links.

    This is the website where all of MI's State laws may be searched and read. They can be searched by number or key word.

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(1kt...aspx?page=Home

    Here's a legal update from the Michigan State Police on the subject of OC: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    If you have any questions or need some clarifications feel free to ask.

    Oh, and remember I'm not a lawyer and this isn't legal advice. This is just how I as a lay person interprets the law. You'll need to read them and come to your conclusions.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    thanks folks for all the useful info

    not sure yet when i'll be going back to visit michigan but it's good to know for when i do
    i cc in my home state florida legally and usually i drive up to michigan when i go but now a days it's cheaper much cheaper to fly that gas is so expensive.........so i'd have to check the airlines on how to bring my gun with me next time i go as i think i'd probably be flying up next time and being my family and friends are in or near the greater detroit area i'll be damned if i don't carry whilst up there
    thanks again to all who posted the info i was needing to see and sorry i couldn't reply sooner i couldn't figure out how to get back on the forum and had to change my passcode and wait and messed up and had to wait and rechange it and all......and tell bikenut i thank you too

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle eyes View Post
    so i'd have to check the airlines on how to bring my gun
    http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtrav...rial_1666.shtm

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    I wasn't sure of how Michigan law affected an out of State permit holder for OC here so I asked for help and once again my faith in OCDO folks to provide the actual laws is shown to be Justified.

    Thank you google fu wizard Bronson!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Think nothing of it. Most of those links are things that were posted by others on this site. I merely bookmarked them.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 09-06-2012 at 11:18 PM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    Re: quick question from fort lauderdale

    Quote Originally Posted by Bronson View Post
    Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjddG5Owsc

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
    "Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom."
    —John F. Kennedy

    "If a man neglects to enforce his rights, he cannot complain if, after a while, the law follows his example."
    —Oliver Wendell Holmes

  10. #10
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: quick question from fort lauderdale

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle eyes View Post
    not sure yet when i'll be going back to visit michigan but it's good to know for when i do
    i cc in my home state florida legally and usually i drive up to michigan when i go but now a days it's cheaper much cheaper to fly that gas is so expensive.........so i'd have to check the airlines on how to bring my gun with me next time i go as i think i'd probably be flying up next time and being my family and friends are in or near the greater detroit area i'll be damned if i don't carry whilst up there
    thanks again to all who posted the info i was needing to see and sorry i couldn't reply sooner i couldn't figure out how to get back on the forum and had to change my passcode and wait and messed up and had to wait and rechange it and all......and tell bikenut i thank you too
    I've flown many times between Florida and Michigan with my handgun. I'd suggest that you check the airline rules first as these can be, and often are, more restrictive than the rules the TSA promulgates. Bronson covered Michigan law well; if you still have questions, though, feel free to ask.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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