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Thread: I'm from Las Vegas

  1. #1
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    I'm from Las Vegas

    Hi all. I'm Scott from Las Vegas, NV. I'm planning to make a trip to MI this fall, sometime in Oct. I was born in MI in Sturgis and moved at 9 years old to NV. I'm happy to make a trip back with my brother during the fall season. I've been trying to read and pay attention to the forum here so I know that I'm legal and can protect myself and my family during the trip. I plan to carry during the travel.

    As I understand it my CCW NV permit is accepted in MI.

    I have open carried here in NV for years, and only really got a CCW for the 3 days of rain we get, and for casinos who mostly don't like us to protect ourselves.

    This will be my first time traveling with a firearm. First time going through the airport and such. And a whole different state, with different laws, that I have to learn and abide by. Michigan born, I am really excited to go back home and also be able to protect myself, my family, and my rights. Anything and everything, ad nauseum, please help me out with what to do, what to expect, what to reject, etc. I still have plenty of time between my trip and now, so that I can learn and focus on what to expect, and also how to approach things.

    I'm not sure it's appropriate to talk about carry in NV in this thread, but things can be SO drastically different state to state so I hope you forgive me. I want to provide you with how things are here, so in contrast you can help me with my vacation.

    I find it easiest to state where I cannot carry(open stricly).

    Post office
    Schools
    Federal buildings
    Court

    There may be more, but i cannot think of them, haven't had to go through them.

    Meaning ok places are ...but not limited to - casinos, bars, restaurants, movie theatres, gas stations, banks, dmv, airport, grocery store, cars, houses, sidewalks.

    Thanks all for reading, and replying! Please give me info!

    Scott

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    Dont be so grumpy, I was hoping to give you a warm welcome. Good day.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-07-2012 at 12:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    I was hoping you would be amused. So sorry. Some guy called lost little robot comes on asking for info, so I post a link that fit, and was funny.

    PS. I didnt make my sig just for you.
    Why was my post deleted? Apparently I'm not the clown you think I am, so lets delete all things related, not just mine. No offense but I don't think you should have the final word just because you were the one mistaken. I made no mistakes, why should I pay? Delete all your mistakes. Also please repair...please give me good information. I'm sorry some idiot, who happens to have my idiot name, did idiot things. I'm truly sorry for that, but I'm not THAT idiot, I'm my own, please give me my own!.

    EDIT - Not holding your feet to the fire - but given that I have an aug 2009 tag next to me, and you have a Dec 2009 tag next to yours....Why delete me? sad face....
    Last edited by Lostlittlerobot; 09-07-2012 at 12:19 AM.

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Lostlittlerobot:

    In Michigan, with a resident Nevada CFP, it is legal for a person to carry a firearm in public either concealed or openly. (MCL 750.231a)

    MCL 750.234d provides that it is a 90 day misdemeanor to OC/possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:
    - A depository financial institution (e.g., bank or credit union)
    - A church or other place of religious worship
    - A court
    - A theater
    - A sports arena
    - A day care center
    - A hospital
    - An establishment licensed under the Liquor Control Code

    The above section does not apply to any of the
    following
    :
    -The owner or a person hired as security (if the firearm is possessed for the purpose of providing
    security)
    - A peace officer
    - A person with a valid concealed pistol license (CPL) issued by any state
    - A person who possesses on one of the above listed premises with the permission of the owner
    or owner’s agent

    MCL 28.425o provides that a person with a valid CPL (or resident state equivalent) shall not carry a concealed pistol in a pistol-free zone. First offense is a state civil infraction.
    The following is a list of the premises (excluding parking lots) included in the statute:
    - School or school property, except a parent or legal guardian who is dropping off or picking up a
    child and the pistol is kept in the vehicle
    - Public or private day care center
    - Sports arena or stadium
    - A bar or tavern where sale and consumption of
    liquor by the glass is the primary source of
    income (does not apply to owner or employee of
    the business).
    - Any property or facility owned or operated by a
    church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other
    place of worship, unless authorized by the
    presiding official
    - An entertainment facility that has a seating
    capacity of 2,500 or more
    - A hospital
    - A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university
    - A casino (as defined in R 432.1212, MCL 432.202. Basically, Native American Casinos are NOT off-limits under state law. Detroit area casinos
    are off limits for concealed carry)

    ***NOTICE*** the statute above applies to CPL holders or those with out-of-state resident permits carrying a concealed pistol. If the CPL holder is Open Carrying (OC), MCL 28.425o does not apply. What this means is that if you are a resident of Nevada with a valid Nevada CFP, you may carry a non-concealed (OC) pistol in the areas described in MCL 28.425o and MCL 750.234d.

    MCL 28.425f(3) states: "An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying
    a concealed pistol and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that
    he or she is carrying a pistol concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle." The penalty for a first
    offense includes a $100 fine, and a CPL suspension of up to six months.

    Michigan has state preemption over local government in regards to firearm laws:

    MCL 123.1102 Regulation of Pistols or Other Firearms.
    Sec. 2. A local unit of government shall not impose special taxation on, enact or enforce any ordinance or
    regulation pertaining to, or regulate in any other manner the ownership, registration, purchase, sale, transfer,
    transportation, or possession of pistols or other firearms, ammunition for pistols or other firearms, or
    components of pistols or other firearms, except as otherwise provided by federal law or a law of this state.

    In Michigan there is no general duty for a citizen to identify himself or herself to a police officer (Stop and Identify statute)

    In regards to the acceptance of OC, we have a section "sticky" entitled "List Your Open Carry Experiences Here" that will indicate that in most places, for the most part, Open Carry is generally accepted/tolerated. We do not have many "No Carry/ Firearms Prohibited Signs"... I've seen 2 in the last 8 years.

    I have flown to California and Florida many times with firearms. I would check the specific airlines rules/regulations as all of them incorporate the TSA rules AND then usually add a few corporate restrictions to those of the TSA. Do not hesitate to travel with your firearm! I was nervous the first few times but one usually gets a little personal service and 9 times out of 10 gets escorted to the front of the security line. See this website for some experiences: http://deviating.net/firearms/packing/accounts.html

    When you are here and have any questions, feel free to ask.

    I also suggest that you download MSP Legal Update 86 which gives a very good explanation of the major points I discussed above:
    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    This website covers cc laws pretty well: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf

    I hope you enjoy your time here... I've traveled to almost every state and lived in Germany for a number of years, but Michigan is my favorite place to be.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-07-2012 at 12:37 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Thanks DrTodd, you beat me to it.

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    Hope you all love the love, but I read that

    MCL 28.425o

    shall not carry a concealed pistol

    - A bar or tavern

    I read that - OC in bar good.

    NV has a alchohol statute. (I don't drink while armed) .10 while carrying is a crime. If you want the NRS I'll give, but my objective here is does MI. From what I read, I can carry, with my NV CCW, to MI, in a bar/tavern, openly. I don't even know that I'll be in a tavern there. I plan to fish, and hike, and take in nature, and see my dead family members in cemetaries.


    So please if there are any church/cem laws...that'd be valid. Oh wait I read NO church....concealed....what about open?

    I want to go to the church my mother/grand mother were involved in in White Pidgeon so I can try to track down some family heirlooms. Also visit some family in that cemetary. This is a heavy task, and I want to know my rights, but also respect the MI laws while there.

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    You can OC or CC in church, but you have to get permission first. Get it in writing.

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    Since I DO plan on going to this one church, since it's the one and only place I can track down some family heirlooms, I must get permission for both ? CC AND OC?

    Sorry to say I'm not a church guy - what - legally - is permissable. What sort of 'position' or 'office' must write me this letter? White pidgeon still says 'welcome to the village of...' but I want to be respectful and I just have no clue on religous customs.

  9. #9
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    You can OC or CC in church, but you have to get permission first. Get it in writing.
    Stainless, he doesn't need permission to OC at a church with a Nevada CFP; only if he were CC would permission need to be granted.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    You have to get permission to OC or CC. They will likely tell you no, or ask you to CC.

    Whom the permission comes from, depends on the church, and the way it is set up. Some churches decisions are made by the pastor, you would need his permission. Some are run by a board, or deacons, or elders, you would need permission from those respectively.

    IMO this all is a blatant violation of the first amendment as well as the second, seeing that the words of Christ Himself, tell us to be armed.

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    Hope you all love the love, but I read that

    MCL 28.425o

    shall not carry a concealed pistol

    - A bar or tavern

    I read that - OC in bar good.

    NV has a alchohol statute. (I don't drink while armed) .10 while carrying is a crime. If you want the NRS I'll give, but my objective here is does MI. From what I read, I can carry, with my NV CCW, to MI, in a bar/tavern, openly. I don't even know that I'll be in a tavern there. I plan to fish, and hike, and take in nature, and see my dead family members in cemetaries.


    So please if there are any church/cem laws...that'd be valid. Oh wait I read NO church....concealed....what about open?

    I want to go to the church my mother/grand mother were involved in in White Pidgeon so I can try to track down some family heirlooms. Also visit some family in that cemetary. This is a heavy task, and I want to know my rights, but also respect the MI laws while there.
    If you are CC, a bar or tavern where sale and consumption of liquor by the glass is the primary source of income is off-limits.
    If you are OC w/ the NV CFP, you are good to go.

    No cemetery restrictions UNLESS owned by a church, then follow as for church.

    The strange thing about Michigan is that if you OC, you are virtually unlimited by state law regarding where you may carry. Of course, Federal Law is different, as the restrictions here are as they would be in NV...ie NO Post Office Carry.

    Even though OC would be legal on a state university campus except for those areas mentioned in MCL28.425o, because they believe that they have the right to control their property under Michigan's Constitution, carry on the property of the University of Michigan and most other universities would not be advisable at this time. Be aware, too, that we currently have a preemption case before the MI Court of Appeals regarding a library's ability to ban open carry. As of now, no decision has been rendered by the court.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 09-07-2012 at 01:00 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Stainless, he doesn't need permission to OC at a church with a Nevada CFP; only if he were CC would permission need to be granted.
    Aah, thats right, he's functioning under the law a little different than what I've gotten used to, thanks.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Stainless, he doesn't need permission to OC at a church with a Nevada CFP; only if he were CC would permission need to be granted.
    DrTodd is correct in that you don't need permission to OC in a church with your concealed pistol license, but private property rights still prevail and even though you would be legal they have full right to ask you to leave or remove the firearm. Your choices at that point are to do as they ask or refuse and have the police called which would likely end in an arrest for trespassing.

    You are also not legally required to get written permission to CC but we recommend it because it prevents the permission giving body from saying you were never given permission.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

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    I don't intend to visit a school campus on my visit, and like here, when asked to leave you must or face charges of trespassing.

    I might be dragged into a few bars by my brother, where he used to frequent, so from what I've read, and seen responses of, I'd be OC.



    Hopefully I don't require a hospital visit....

    Should I need emergency care - what are my options?

    Here in NV I can carry OC or CC into a medical care facility legally. I don't want to have to, but any suggestions should shtf?

    So all this is as advertised. Thanks all for your support. Now


    NV has no statute for stop and frisk, or identify while carrying, etc.


    NV law (can provide case law if wanted) one must only give name, not spell, not show id, nothing, if and only if Probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion exists.


    Do law enforcement often accost carriers who OC? From out of state what should I arm myself with lawfully? I know what HERE to tell visitors should they encounter OUR LE. Much love

  15. #15
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lostlittlerobot View Post
    I don't intend to visit a school campus on my visit, and like here, when asked to leave you must or face charges of trespassing.

    I might be dragged into a few bars by my brother, where he used to frequent, so from what I've read, and seen responses of, I'd be OC.



    Hopefully I don't require a hospital visit....

    Should I need emergency care - what are my options?

    Here in NV I can carry OC or CC into a medical care facility legally. I don't want to have to, but any suggestions should shtf?

    So all this is as advertised. Thanks all for your support. Now


    NV has no statute for stop and frisk, or identify while carrying, etc.


    NV law (can provide case law if wanted) one must only give name, not spell, not show id, nothing, if and only if Probable cause or reasonable articulable suspicion exists.


    Do law enforcement often accost carriers who OC? From out of state what should I arm myself with lawfully? I know what HERE to tell visitors should they encounter OUR LE. Much love
    The hospital thing... I know there are stipulations, and some hospitals are privately owned and some aren't... I think it is legal to OC with CPL only... but don't take my word on that, I'll have to look it up later unless someone better versed has the info more readily available. I will research after work if nobody else has provided the info you need.

    As far as being stopped by LEO... yeah, they like to harass us from time to time, but not nearly as frequent as it used to be. However, you are only required to provide documentation if you are CCing [or, obviously, driving]:

    If detained by police while CCing, you must disclose that you are CCing, and provide your CPL [or your equivalent out of state permit] upon request of a peace officer.

    Quote Originally Posted by MCL Code 28.425f
    28.425f Concealed pistol license; possession; disclosure to peace officer; violation; penalty; notice to department and issuing board; seizure; forfeiture; "peace officer" defined.

    Sec. 5f.

    (1) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol shall have his or her license to carry that pistol in his or her possession at all times he or she is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology.

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.


    (3) An individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology and who is stopped by a peace officer shall immediately disclose to the peace officer that he or she is carrying a pistol or a portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology concealed upon his or her person or in his or her vehicle.

    (4) An individual who violates subsection (1) or (2) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined not more than $100.00.

    (5) An individual who violates subsection (3) is responsible for a state civil infraction and may be fined as follows:

    (a) For a first offense, by a fine of not more than $500.00 or by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being suspended for 6 months, or both.

    (b) For a subsequent offense within 3 years of a prior offense, by a fine of not more than $1,000.00 and by the individual's license to carry a concealed pistol being revoked.

    (6) If an individual is found responsible for a state civil infraction under this section, the court shall notify the department of state police and the concealed weapon licensing board that issued the license of that determination.

    (7) A pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology carried in violation of this section is subject to immediate seizure by a peace officer. If a peace officer seizes a pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology under this subsection, the individual has 45 days in which to display his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer. If the individual displays his or her license or documentation to an authorized employee of the law enforcement entity that employs the peace officer within the 45-day period, the authorized employee of that law enforcement entity shall return the pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology to the individual unless the individual is prohibited by law from possessing a firearm or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology. If the individual does not display his or her license or documentation within the 45-day period, the pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology is subject to forfeiture as provided in section 5g. A pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology is not subject to immediate seizure under this subsection if both of the following circumstances exist:

    (a) The individual has his or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card in his or her possession when the violation occurs.

    (b) The peace officer verifies through the law enforcement information network that the individual is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol.

    (8) As used in this section, "peace officer" includes a motor carrier officer appointed under section 6d of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6d, and security personnel employed by the state under section 6c of 1935 PA 59, MCL 28.6c.

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    Get a digital video or voice recorder.

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    @ evil. You need a CPL to OC in a hospital.

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    @ evil. You need a CPL to OC in a hospital.
    I know... hence, I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle
    I think it is legal to OC with CPL only...
    But what I don't have for him right now is cites. Do you have time to provide that? At the moment I do not.
    Last edited by Evil Creamsicle; 09-07-2012 at 04:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    I know... hence, I said:



    But what I don't have for him right now is cites. Do you have time to provide that? At the moment I do not.
    Already given...see my post above regarding MCL 754.234d and MCL 28.425o.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Already given...see my post above regarding MCL 754.234d and MCL 28.425o.
    Thats why I didnt make the post, sorry,

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    Thanks for all the info. I'll probably be CC mostly during the trip cause I'll be with family and for whatever reason, they're not fond of OC. I now know what I need to to enjoy my trip.

    The big thing was to notify if LEO encountered. That was huge help.

    Thanks all, I'll be there in a month or so =). Small towns...doubt any of this will matter at all, but here - my family is FREAKING out that I want to travel with a firearm...they keep saying 9/11 wont let you....

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    9/11 doesnt have anything to do with it.

    I'd be freaking out if I traveled without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    9/11 doesnt have anything to do with it.

    I'd be freaking out if I traveled without it.
    I agree - my family hates me for it. Told them I'm not gonna do a home comming trip if I don't know that I can be safe during it.

    They asked why I feel that I need to worry about it all the time. Thoughts? They're also all from MI. We moved here to Vegas in the 90's. Everyone most dear to me is from Michigan, and I want to keep us/them safe. The way I know how is to carry a simple tool that allows it. I plan to see cousins and aunts and extended family while there. It's all about family to me. How do I get that across to the nay sayers?

    Scott

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    You dont think about your wallet all day, just when you need it, and its there. Same with your seatbelt. You hope you dont need your seatbelt today, but you are going to put it on in case you do.

    Michigan has 2 of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the US according to the FBI, Saginaw and Flint. Betcha thought it was Detroit right?

    Ask them how you would be able to show your face to your loved ones if you could have done something to save one of them, but didnt want to offend someone.

  25. #25
    Regular Member fozzy71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    .....
    Michigan has 2 of the top 10 most dangerous cities in the US according to the FBI, Saginaw and Flint. Betcha thought it was Detroit right?
    ......
    It is Flint and Detroit - http://homes.yahoo.com/news/most-dan...home_multiline
    "I like users who quote smellslikemichigan in their signature lines." - fozzy71

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