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Thread: Questions for discussion

  1. #1
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    Questions for discussion

    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    Last edited by scot623; 09-10-2012 at 09:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Questions for discussion

    1. I'd keep my arms under my pits and tell him I don't consent to search and seizures of my property but I won't physically resist him if he takes my firearm.
    2. Never in public or a public area. I have while walking down my driveway from my detached garage to my house -- while doing so it's in an IWB holster.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    1, Haven't given it much thought, I would like to think I would do what theQ stated
    2. Possibly from my car in the driveway to the house, Or in hunting situation carrying my shotgun unloaded over my shoulder walking down street surrounded by hunting area.
    3. I have never feared getting shot by LEO for touching my firearm.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    No

    Yes. Once, because I had picked up a second gun that day, didnt have a holster, and didnt want to leave it in storage. Once because it would have been covered by a raincoat. And the last time, I had borrowed a jacket from my parents because it had gotten cold the other night, the jacket went down almost to the knees making it impossible to carry in holster without concealing. The jacket would not tuck behind the holster either. It was carry in hand, or go without.

    Yes, but then again, I dont trust a cop not to shoot an OCer, because of the disdain I have seen for OC, how I have been treated by them and the courts, and because they have been known to injure and kill unarmed innocent civilians who were completely unarmed and usually compliant.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    1. I'd keep my arms under my pits and tell him I don't consent to search and seizures of my property but I won't physically resist him if he takes my firearm.
    2. Never in public or a public area. I have while walking down my driveway from my detached garage to my house -- while doing so it's in an IWB holster.
    ^ both of these. If I'm carrying holstered, and have something like a bag in hand, I put in my right hand. If not, I just cross my arms. I don't OC in hand in public either. The times I have, were either LGOC, or to avoid breaking an unconstitutional law.

    Even if I were improperly charged and subsequently convicted of a brandishing charge that I wasn't guilty of, it would still be better than being charged and convicted of a felonious CCW.
    Last edited by stainless1911; 09-10-2012 at 10:28 AM.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    1. No. In fact I have been in this situation, and did pretty much what Q stated, except I raised my arms up, hands behind my head, to make sure there was no mistaking that it was the cop grabbing the gun and not me.
    2. I have only done this between my car in the driveway and my front door of my house, and even then only usually late at night when there is nobody around.
    3. Most of the time, no, but if it is during an LEO interaction or detainment, yes, absolutely, especially when these officers are already proving themselves criminals by attempting to feloniously disarm you.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    1) No. I would keep my hands in front of me, more than likely holding my camera. And given the fact that more than likely he is approaching me for the simple fact that I am open carrying, I would not allow him to remove my firearm. As I have broken no law, and his attempts at seizing my property would be a crime.

    2) Only my A4.

    3) Gun or not, I fear being shot by police more than getting attacked by a terrorist.
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 09-10-2012 at 03:43 PM.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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  7. #7
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    1.) Keep my hands in my pits, or up maybe behind my head...

    2.) No I do not IHOC. Going in or out of the house to vehicle, I don't consider OC... that's just regular handling of the firearm. Unholstering to switch holsters or do a press check, or whatever reason is not openly carrying to me.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  8. #8
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    No, absolutely no. I would raise my hands up and reply, "For my own safety, I am not touching my weapon. I don't consent to search or seizure, but I won't resist you taking my weapon."

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    No. I do not want to contribute to any misunderstanding that could get me shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    I didn't answer yes to either one, but if I had I would definitely also acknowledge the real rise in potential of a misunderstanding occurring from which I could be shot.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    1. Yes, unless....See (3.)

    2. No, entirely unnecessary if you have a holster.

    3. No, (unless he, she or they are at low-ready).

  10. #10
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I would not allow him to remove my firearm.
    How would you stop him?

    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?

    1. Depends upon the circumstances surrounding the situation.
    2. Yes or No; Depends upon the definition of "Open Carry".
    3. Depends upon the circumstances surrounding the situation.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    ENOUGH ALREADY! While there are some folks who think it is cool to keep the Stainless bashing going I'm tired of it! And don't even try to say that #2 and #3 are not thinly disguised digs at Stainless because it is so obvious that even Obama would love to lay claim to the transparency of it.

    I firmly believe folks should be able to speak their minds... but to all those who have some kind of urinating contest with Neil... it is way past time to stop!

    ENOUGH ALREADY!

    And Neil?

    ENOUGH ALREADY!
    ... stop with the intentionally provocative posts hoping to get the exact reaction that you are getting from those who have a problem with you... just so you get your attention fix for the day.

    If not for my sake..if not for the sake of this forum... then please, PLEASE!!!, stop the bickering between yourselves for the sake of the right to bear arms!!!!
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  13. #13
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikeNut
    ENOUGH ALREADY![/SIZE][/B][SIZE=4][SIZE=3] ... stop with the intentionally provocative posts hoping to get the exact reaction that you are getting from those who have a problem with you... just so you get your attention fix for the day.
    Sorry, it won't happen. He's been asked MANY times recently. He eats it up.
    Last edited by HKcarrier; 09-10-2012 at 07:15 PM.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  14. #14
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Sorry, it won't happen. He's been asked MANY times recently. He eats it up.
    False flag, perhaps? Agent provocateur? Am I the only one who sees this?
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 09-10-2012 at 07:50 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  15. #15
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    False flag, perhaps? Agent provocateur? Am I the only one who sees this?
    Sees what?
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by scot623

    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    ENOUGH ALREADY! While there are some folks who think it is cool to keep the Stainless bashing going I'm tired of it! And don't even try to say that #2 and #3 are not thinly disguised digs at Stainless because it is so obvious that even Obama would love to lay claim to the transparency of it.

    I firmly believe folks should be able to speak their minds... but to all those who have some kind of urinating contest with Neil... it is way past time to stop!

    ENOUGH ALREADY!

    And Neil?

    ENOUGH ALREADY!
    ... stop with the intentionally provocative posts hoping to get the exact reaction that you are getting from those who have a problem with you... just so you get your attention fix for the day.

    If not for my sake..if not for the sake of this forum... then please, PLEASE!!!, stop the bickering between yourselves for the sake of the right to bear arms!!!!
    Good advice frequently goes unheeded when such does not fit in the agenda.

    Even this thread stands as a testament to that, but still looking to see if the simple dictum of discussing facts w/o the personality issues can prevail - hope does burn eternal.......but I'm not holding my breath either. Disappointing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Get2DahChopper's Avatar
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    Re: Questions for discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    1.Would you comply if a LEO ordered you to remove your firearm from your holster and place it on the ground?
    2. Do you ever open carry with your gun in your hand?
    3. If you answered "yes" to either 1 or 2, do you fear being shot by the LEO for touching your gun in their presence?
    Quote Originally Posted by stainless1911 View Post
    No

    Yes. Once, because I had picked up a second gun that day, didnt have a holster, and didnt want to leave it in storage. Once because it would have been covered by a raincoat. And the last time, I had borrowed a jacket from my parents because it had gotten cold the other night, the jacket went down almost to the knees making it impossible to carry in holster without concealing. The jacket would not tuck behind the holster either. It was carry in hand, or go without.

    Yes, but then again, I dont trust a cop not to shoot an OCer, because of the disdain I have seen for OC, how I have been treated by them and the courts, and because they have been known to injure and kill unarmed innocent civilians who were completely unarmed and usually compliant.



    ^ both of these. If I'm carrying holstered, and have something like a bag in hand, I put in my right hand. If not, I just cross my arms. I don't OC in hand in public either. The times I have, were either LGOC, or to avoid breaking an unconstitutional law.

    Even if I were improperly charged and subsequently convicted of a brandishing charge that I wasn't guilty of, it would still be better than being charged and convicted of a felonious CCW.
    If memory serves correct, you posted in the past that you handed your pistol to a cop in a gas station? If so please modify your answer. You may have forgotten maybe? It stuck in my head because I thougt his command to you was going to give him a excuse to shoot you.
    Last edited by Get2DahChopper; 09-11-2012 at 01:19 PM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    How would you stop him?

    “An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery.” (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).
    I have the right as a citizen to resist any unlawful action taken against my person or property. And seeing as how board rules dont allow it, and Grapeshot has been on a moderating rampage, I will not post details.

    And if that fails to help you, please read the quote in my signature....
    Last edited by Tucker6900; 09-11-2012 at 04:11 PM.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tucker6900

    I would not allow him to remove my firearm.
    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    How would you stop him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I have the right as a citizen to resist any unlawful action taken against my person or property. And seeing as how board rules dont allow it, and Grapeshot has been on a moderating rampage, I will not post details.

    And if that fails to help you, please read the quote in my signature....
    One has the right to resist in a lawful manner, although there are only few that will endorse a physical response when less volatile, legal recourse is available. Insofar as forum rules don't allow it, I can only presume you mean in violation of some law, although your sig line does not suggest a violation of law.

    Each of us are charged with moderating as part of the privilege of posting here. If I have been on a "rampage" which I would dispute, then you must be reading posts that violate the TOS and should be reported as a matter of course.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Questions for discussion

    Moderation has been a bit heavy handed as of late...just sayin'
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  21. #21
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Questions for discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Just change your user name to stainless and grapeshot will let your "against the rules" post stand.
    I bet "stainless1912" is available.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I bet "stainless1912" is available.
    MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS ARE NOT ALLOWED: Signing up multiple accounts (or alts) is a tactic employed by spammers and trolls and not legitimate members. Doing so will result in the banning of all accounts involved.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Questions for discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS ARE NOT ALLOWED: Signing up multiple accounts (or alts) is a tactic employed by spammers and trolls and not legitimate members. Doing so will result in the banning of all accounts involved.
    Who mentioned anything about dupe accounts? You did. I think scot623 is talking about asking John to change your account name -- either that or he was just making the point that some people get away with things that others don't.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Who mentioned anything about dupe accounts? You did. I think scot623 is talking about asking John to change your account name -- either that or he was just making the point that some people get away with things that others don't.
    Actually as you know scot623 did - I edited it and left it where you quoted it. I would have expected better.

    No Moderator or administration can see all posts, nor should it be even a consideration. Some come to our attention and are remembered and watched. That is unfortunately the case here, where those that should know better apparently feel free to slander and/or slur others, belabor a point of contention. rather than spend the time on productive enterprise.

    In the interest of some order, we'll leave this thread here.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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