Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 35

Thread: .40 vs .45

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    81

    .40 vs .45

    I've read all the stats on the two calibers and without starting a cailber war is there any practical reason to choose a .45 over a .40? One shot stop stats are nearly identical as are mv and foot pounds. Why would someone choosing a new pistol choose a .45 over a .40? Trying to convince my mother she doesn't need a .45 just because "it's bigger". Ammunition for a .40 is about the same if not a little less expensive.

  2. #2
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Elizabethton, TN
    Posts
    795
    Recoil. I'm much more comfortable with .45 than .40. .40 is only marginally more powerful than 9mm, so if you want ammo capacity you may as well go with 9mm and save some money and even more recoil.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  3. #3
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Nevada
    Posts
    6,520
    Yep, recoil and muzzle-flip which translates to ability to put accurate rounds downrange in a timely fashion.

    The .40 is a modern higher-pressure round that solved no problems and created a big one when it was introduced to the FBI when they couldn't handle the 10mm, which itself was poorly chosen after an emotional reaction to a bad gunfight where tactics were the problem, not the firepower.

    The .45 is easier to handle in an equal pistol.

    The "stopping power" argument is highly overrated. Shootability is underrated, unfortunately. Honestly, more people should be carrying 9mm's and .380's in guns the size of some of these tiny 40's. I've had several students that carry .22's. They can put 10 rounds in a bullseye while you are recovering from the muzzle flip of your .40.
    Last edited by MAC702; 09-10-2012 at 03:49 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Somerset
    Posts
    81
    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Yep, recoil and muzzle-flip which translates to ability to put accurate rounds downrange in a timely fashion.

    The .40 is a modern higher-pressure round that solved no problems and created a big one when it was introduced to the FBI when they couldn't handle the 10mm, which itself was poorly chosen after an emotional reaction to a bad gunfight where tactics were the problem, not the firepower.

    The .45 is easier to handle in an equal pistol.

    The "stopping power" argument is highly overrated. Shootability is underrated, unfortunately. Honestly, more people should be carrying 9mm's and .380's in guns the size of some of these tiny 40's. I've had several students that carry .22's. They can put 10 rounds in a bullseye while you are recovering from the muzzle flip of your .40.
    Yea, I was aware of the recoil, started to mention it. Certainly no argument with the control of a .22 over anything else.

  5. #5
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Personally, the .40 is very popular with cops, but in reality, the 9mm is a perfectly adaquate man stopper.

    The idea of 9mm being "under powered" stems from military experience I think, at least complaints from the military was the first place I heard of 9mm complaints. the problem is, the military can only use FMJ roundnose ammo. they can't use hollowpoints. dump a couple CorBon powerballs or Speer Gold dots into someone and I promise they ain't going nowhere fast. ammo type and shot placement.

    Now if you wish to carry .40, you are certainly free to do so, if you want to carry 45 ACP, you're free to do so, if you want to use some oddball cartridge like .357 Sig, or 10mm Auto or .45 GAP I will not try to discourage you from carrying whatever you want.

    I personally think there's nothing wrong with 9mm though, currently my only handgun is a .38 revolver, and I love .38 too. when it comes to .40 and .45 ammo is expensive, you carry fewer rounds per mag, and if you're a good shot it really doesn't help that much.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  6. #6
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Sundiver View Post
    I've read all the stats on the two calibers and without starting a cailber war is there any practical reason to choose a .45 over a .40? One shot stop stats are nearly identical as are mv and foot pounds. Why would someone choosing a new pistol choose a .45 over a .40? Trying to convince my mother she doesn't need a .45 just because "it's bigger". Ammunition for a .40 is about the same if not a little less expensive.
    Let Mom have what she wants.

  7. #7
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignAxe View Post
    Recoil. I'm much more comfortable with .45 than .40. .40 is only marginally more powerful than 9mm, so if you want ammo capacity you may as well go with 9mm and save some money and even more recoil.
    The .40 S&W is significantly more "powerful" than the 9mm Luger. With the 9mm the average energy the round produces is between 320 to 370 foot pounds of energy; the .40 S&W produces energies between 440 to 490 fpe. This is a big gain in energy over the 9mm, so it is considerably more "powerful."

    The .45 ACP normally carries about the same energy as the 9mm, but it is a large heavy bullet that causes a large diameter hole and penetrates consistent and deep.

    My favorite load is Speer's Gold Dot 125 grain .357 Sig. This round produces nearly 560 fpe from a glock 31, or 22 with a conversion barrel and exceeds 1,400 fps. I carry this round almost exclusively now in my Glcok 23 RTF2 with a wollf .357 Sig. barrel, and I still get nearly 1,400 fps from the 4" barrel and around 520 fpe. This round expands better than nearly any round I have ever worked with, and consistently expands to 3/4 of an inch everytime I have tested it while firing into different materials.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Personally, the .40 is very popular with cops, but in reality, the 9mm is a perfectly adaquate man stopper.
    There is NO handgun round that is "perfectly adequate" as a man stopper. NONE.

    As Jeff Cooper put it "A handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle...."

    I suggest that you read the FBI Quantico report on Wounding Ballistics available here
    http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

    Probably the .357, .41 and .44 Magnum rounds and the 10mm are the better handgun rounds but even they are not "perfectly adequate".
    Last edited by ken101; 09-11-2012 at 10:41 AM.

  9. #9
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,275
    The perfect weapon is the one you have when you need it, that works, and can put chunks of lead where you want them. The rest is up to you.

  10. #10
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Concord, NC
    Posts
    1,790
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The perfect weapon is the one you have when you need it, that works, and can put chunks of lead where you want them. The rest is up to you.
    (*thumbs up*) +1
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  11. #11
    Activist Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ashland, KY
    Posts
    1,847
    Quote Originally Posted by ken101 View Post
    There is NO handgun round that is "perfectly adequate" as a man stopper. NONE.

    As Jeff Cooper put it "A handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle...."

    I suggest that you read the FBI Quantico report on Wounding Ballistics available here
    http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

    Probably the .357, .41 and .44 Magnum rounds and the 10mm are the better handgun rounds but even they are not "perfectly adequate".
    Absolutely right!

    To be honest, the majority of rifle rounds are not even adequate to incapacitate a Human Being. The Human body is incredibly resilient, and can take a large amount of damage before it will collapse.
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 09-11-2012 at 01:16 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

  12. #12
    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    S. Kitsap, Washington state
    Posts
    3,763
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    Absolutely right!

    To be honest, the majority of rifle rounds are not even adequate to incapacitate a Human Being. The Human body is incredibly resilient, and can take a large amount of damage before it will collapse.
    I would have to disagree. I'm not aware of any DGUs, police or armed citizen in which a handgun was used until someone could get to a long gun. maybe the North Hollywood shootout would count in which LAPD officers used their trusty Berettas, Smith 64s, and Ithaca 37s (which is a long gun but not a rifle) until a pair of officers borrowed some evil black assault weapons from a local gun shop. Other then that most engagements I can think of utilizing rifles are ones in which the rifle was close by or already in play when the shooting started.

    The idea of fighting your way back to a rifle, while a perfect theory, it seems to me most gun battles are over quickly, long before anyone can return to retrieve a rifle.

    As far as adaquacey. humans are tough but not invincible, dump a gold dot or two in 9mm to the center of mass and see how quickly that guy is walkin' away. half of a gun battle would be skill and the ability to calmly revert to your training under fire, when that is factored in, i don't think it matters if you're shooting 17HMR or 454 Casul, if you can remain calm and place your shots right that's what matters most. at least in my humble (but admitibly inexperienced, non-expert) opinion
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

    NRA Member

  13. #13
    Regular Member SovereignAxe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Elizabethton, TN
    Posts
    795
    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    The .40 S&W is significantly more "powerful" than the 9mm Luger. With the 9mm the average energy the round produces is between 320 to 370 foot pounds of energy; the .40 S&W produces energies between 440 to 490 fpe. This is a big gain in energy over the 9mm, so it is considerably more "powerful."

    The .45 ACP normally carries about the same energy as the 9mm, but it is a large heavy bullet that causes a large diameter hole and penetrates consistent and deep.

    My favorite load is Speer's Gold Dot 125 grain .357 Sig. This round produces nearly 560 fpe from a glock 31, or 22 with a conversion barrel and exceeds 1,400 fps. I carry this round almost exclusively now in my Glcok 23 RTF2 with a wollf .357 Sig. barrel, and I still get nearly 1,400 fps from the 4" barrel and around 520 fpe. This round expands better than nearly any round I have ever worked with, and consistently expands to 3/4 of an inch everytime I have tested it while firing into different materials.
    Not sure where you're getting your data from, but I don't know of any 9mm rounds as low as 320 ft-lb. AFAIK most of them run between 350 and 420, and even more for +P rounds. Take the average of both calibers, 385 and 465, and you have about an 18% difference, on average-not counting +P 9mm rounds. I don't know if I'd consider that significant, but if an 18% improvement makes you feel better, more power to you. Personally, I think that 18% is significantly overshadowed by the loss of ability to get multiple rounds on target in a reasonable amount of time, not to mention the 10% loss in ammo capacity.
    "Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice." -Zeus

    "Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

    EDC = Walther PPQ 9mm

  14. #14
    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington
    Posts
    792
    Just adding my $0.02 to the conversation...

    My handgun is a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 with a 15+1 ammo capacity, fires smoothly with little recoil felt. The 165 grain winchester hollow points I have have about 1,140 feet per second at the muzzle and usually increase in size after mushrooming to 1.5x - 2x original caliber (.60-.80 for those doing the math). I really don't see much in loss of ammo capacity and the power seems more then adequate for my self defence needs. As far as ammo needed in a fire fight... unless you are in a major fight for your life, I really don't see the need for more then just a few rounds so even the 15 in my gun would be more then enough for self defence. If you need more then that, you should be seriously thinking about retreating from the situation as fast and as safe as possible and letting somebody else with more firepower take over.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    Listen to your mother, now, as you did back then. Her initial instincts are correct, in the .45
    Recoil is one great reason (without going into the 100+ yrs of other great reasons) to go .45
    Lower-pressure round than either 9mm or .40 = heavier bullets downrange with lighter, milder recoil than either 9mm/.40 = win/win for her.
    If she can handle and fire .45 safely, by all means, let her.

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    fl
    Posts
    1,835
    "I think that 18% is significantly overshadowed by the loss of ability to get multiple rounds on target in a reasonable amount of time, not to mention the 10% loss in ammo capacity."

    Here's the thing though, and is supported by almost every time (barring point=blank headshots) someone has had to actually pull the trigger on one, on the street. With 9mm/.40 you are going to NEED as many rounds as you can get on-target to get the job done.
    This goes full-circle back to the recoil/muzzle-flip/ pressure issue, when you try getting all those shots off.

  17. #17
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    12,275
    Quote Originally Posted by j4l View Post
    "I think that 18% is significantly overshadowed by the loss of ability to get multiple rounds on target in a reasonable amount of time, not to mention the 10% loss in ammo capacity."

    Here's the thing though, and is supported by almost every time (barring point=blank headshots) someone has had to actually pull the trigger on one, on the street. With 9mm/.40 you are going to NEED as many rounds as you can get on-target to get the job done.
    This goes full-circle back to the recoil/muzzle-flip/ pressure issue, when you try getting all those shots off.
    If his mother can put lead where it is supposed to be, all those extra shots are not needed.

  18. #18
    Regular Member tomrkba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    128
    1) Do not fall for "One shot stop" statistics.
    2) Energy is not indicative of performance.

    In terms of pros and cons, the advantage of the 45 ACP cartridge is recoil is not as snappy. I much prefer the recoil of 45 ACP over 40 S&W, especially in smaller pistols. Another reason is reloading. It's a low pressure cartridge and is more forgiving. If you must manually place the bullet into the case, 45 ACP is very easy since the case is so wide.

    40 S&W gets you 90% of the performance while increasing capacity. I am not certain if that 10% really matters when it comes to terminal ballistics. My vote is that you choose the gun you like and if it happens to be 45 ACP or 40 S&W, then it's good enough.

  19. #19
    Regular Member 45acpForMe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Yorktown, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    2,803
    The issue of felt recoil is personal so you might take your mom to the range and let her shoot a few different guns in each caliber.

    I prefer the felt recoil of a .45acp over .40S&W or 9mm.

    One advantage of .40S&W would be slightly higher capacity but I have found a couple .45acp higher-normal capacity guns like the FNP-45 that I love. A second possible advantage of a .40S&W Semi-Auto pistol is that you could also buy a .357Sig barrel for it and use both calibers. The recoil from .357Sig is very similar to .40S&W but performance is better (but less than most .357mag cartridges available).

    As far as 9mm, to get .45acp performance from a 9mm cartridge you have to use +P or +P+ ammo. So all those nice articles you read about how 9mm is just as good as <insert caliber here> remember that their tests use +P or +P+ ammo which has even higher felt recoil.

    So whatever she can control is best for her and you won't know that until she puts a few rounds downrange.

    Also with DHS buying 1.4 billion rounds of .40S&W will that dry up the supply for a while????

  20. #20
    Regular Member Jay Jacobs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Canton, GA
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    The perfect weapon is the one you have when you need it, that works, and can put chunks of lead where you want them. The rest is up to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by ken101 View Post
    There is NO handgun round that is "perfectly adequate" as a man stopper. NONE.

    As Jeff Cooper put it "A handgun is for fighting your way back to your rifle...."
    + 1

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    11

    .40 Vs .45

    I like th .40 S&W....I just like the .45 better.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    159
    The differences between the commonly available non-magnum defensive pistol calibers is not significant enough to really make a big deal over.

    Just my .02

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Fredericksburg, VA
    Posts
    45
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    Just adding my $0.02 to the conversation...

    My handgun is a Smith and Wesson M&P .40 with a 15+1 ammo capacity, fires smoothly with little recoil felt. The 165 grain winchester hollow points I have have about 1,140 feet per second at the muzzle and usually increase in size after mushrooming to 1.5x - 2x original caliber (.60-.80 for those doing the math)...
    Please show me a .40 s&w that consistently expands to an average (not just at the widest point) of ~.80 and still penetrate ~12" in media such as calibrated gel or flesh? Because I must be using really crappy .40 ammo...

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    197
    Quote Originally Posted by twpetry View Post
    Please show me a .40 s&w that consistently expands to an average (not just at the widest point) of ~.80 and still penetrate ~12" in media such as calibrated gel or flesh? Because I must be using really crappy .40 ammo...
    Please show me where he said anything about penetrating 12" in ballistic gel, and I'll show you where I keep my valuables.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Pierce County, Washington
    Posts
    792
    Quote Originally Posted by twpetry View Post
    Please show me a .40 s&w that consistently expands to an average (not just at the widest point) of ~.80 and still penetrate ~12" in media such as calibrated gel or flesh? Because I must be using really crappy .40 ammo...
    Quote Originally Posted by mwaterous View Post
    Please show me where he said anything about penetrating 12" in ballistic gel, and I'll show you where I keep my valuables.
    yeah... I never said anything about 12 inches... hell, if my bullets penetrate 8 inches I'm super happy considering 8 inches into the chest is more then likely lethal.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •