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Thread: Chesterfield Parks Wording

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Chesterfield Parks Wording

    From the VCDL Alert:

    Chesterfield County is on track to correct a badly written ordinance that caused a gun-owner who was legally in a Chesterfield park to be expelled from that park a couple of months ago. The current ordinance ( 14-11(b) ), which reads in part, "No PERSON shall transport, possess or carry a loaded firearm within 100 yards of any property line of any county public school or county park, except as otherwise permitted by state law" is confusing and has a chilling effect on a person wishing to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. Remember, laws are not written so that you can search to see if something is legal. Instead you need to search for something that says it is illegal and if nothing is found, then it is legal. Heaven help you if you miss a code section where it is made illegal. The police did not do the extra research required to find out if carrying in a park was legal. They simply took the ordinance on its face value and kicked the gun owner out of the park. (This kind of unnecessarily confusing wording is exactly why the Richmond Library's policy on guns is going to get them into trouble one of these days and why VCDL did a protest at the main library.) The proposed new wording reads, "No HUNTER shall transport, possess or carry a loaded firearm within 100 yards of any property line of any county public school or county park, except as otherwise permitted by state law." That should prevent confusion with those who are not hunting.
    Well now that's much better

    Now, only people with hunting licenses are prohibited

    "While hunting would be a better description". We are dealing with a County nicknamed "Arrestifield".

    Pardon me Sir, I see you're wearing a firearm.

    Well, yeah, I am.

    Do you hunt or do you have a hunting license.

    Well, yeah I do.

    I'm afraid I'll have to Cite you for a violation of County law.

    No hunters may carry here.
    Last edited by peter nap; 09-10-2012 at 03:29 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    You aint a hunter unless you gots yer hunting license pinned on properly and are wearing the required square inches of BLAZE ORANGE.

    If'n you is carrying a smokepole or dragging dead meat wit' out them thangs you is a poacher.

    They can't arrest you under that law if'n you air a poacher. (Wonder if'n they can arrest you fer poachin', or do they gots to git a <hack, spit> Game Warden?)

    And y'all thought I wasted all them years reading the law.

    stay safe.
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    You aint a hunter unless you gots yer hunting license pinned on properly and are wearing the required square inches of BLAZE ORANGE.

    If'n you is carrying a smokepole or dragging dead meat wit' out them thangs you is a poacher.

    They can't arrest you under that law if'n you air a poacher. (Wonder if'n they can arrest you fer poachin', or do they gots to git a <hack, spit> Game Warden?)

    And y'all thought I wasted all them years reading the law.

    stay safe.
    Oh...that makes more sense, Thanks Skid!
    This is much better. Now those DogHunters that wear those stupid two tone, blaze orange targets on their heads, have to stay off of county property.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Chesterfield County is on track to correct a badly written ordinance that caused a gun-owner who was legally in a Chesterfield park to be expelled from that park a couple of months ago. The current ordinance ( 14-11(b) ), which reads in part, "No PERSON shall transport, possess or carry a loaded firearm within 100 yards of any property line of any county public school or county park, except as otherwise permitted by state law" is confusing and has a chilling effect on a person wishing to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. Remember, laws are not written so that you can search to see if something is legal. Instead you need to search for something that says it is illegal and if nothing is found, then it is legal. Heaven help you if you miss a code section where it is made illegal. The police did not do the extra research required to find out if carrying in a park was legal. They simply took the ordinance on its face value and kicked the gun owner out of the park. (This kind of unnecessarily confusing wording is exactly why the Richmond Library's policy on guns is going to get them into trouble one of these days and why VCDL did a protest at the main library.) The proposed new wording reads, "No HUNTER shall transport, possess or carry a loaded firearm within 100 yards of any property line of any county public school or county park, except as otherwise permitted by state law." That should prevent confusion with those who are not hunting
    Why is Chesterfield co. targeting the Hunter's? What did Tab and his kin do that was so bad the can't go to the parks? I didn't know they are/were such a quarrelsome family.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    I like VCDL President.

    But he takes everything seriously. I expect he would have opened his bomb shelter for people after hearing the "War of the Worlds" Radio broadcast.

    I have a vision of him at home wringing his hands over this thread and saying "Where did I go wrong", so to preserve his sanity......

    PHILIP, WE'RE JUST KIDDING!

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Used to be a law about "hunting within x feet a road". Now all I can find in a quick look is a statement that it is illegal to shoot across a road.

    If my property abuts a park or school, isn't the County "condemning" and "taking" my land? Am I not due compensation under eminent domain laws for the "taking" and "loss of use/acess"?
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    From the VCDL Alert:



    Well now that's much better

    Now, only people with hunting licenses are prohibited

    "While hunting would be a better description". We are dealing with a County nicknamed "Arrestifield".
    I'm going to suggest the Board of Supervisors change the wording to "No person while hunting shall transport..."

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    I'm going to suggest the Board of Supervisors change the wording to "No person while hunting shall transport..."
    While it is entertaining making fun of the wording Philip, I think there is a more serious issue you should look at. The proposed changes do infringe on the rights of property owners and lessees that intersect county property.

    I expect there will be some unhappy hunters at the meeting.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Why is Chesterfield co. targeting the Hunter's? What did Tab and his kin do that was so bad the can't go to the parks? I didn't know they are/were such a quarrelsome family.
    Well, it's not that they're targeting the hunters because they don't like hunters... they are targeting the hunters because according to 15.2-915, hunters are the only ones they are allowed to target!

    It really is just that simple.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Well, it's not that they're targeting the hunters because they don't like hunters... they are targeting the hunters because according to 15.2-915, hunters are the only ones they are allowed to target!

    It really is just that simple.

    TFred
    STOP POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS - it's annoying to folks with conspiract theories.

    stay safe.
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  11. #11
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    STOP POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS - it's annoying to folks with conspiract theories.

    stay safe.
    Sorry... put your tinfoil hat back on.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    While it is entertaining making fun of the wording Philip, I think there is a more serious issue you should look at. The proposed changes do infringe on the rights of property owners and lessees that intersect county property.

    I expect there will be some unhappy hunters at the meeting.
    The hunters are certainly invited to the BoS meeting to suggest dropping the entire ordinance off the books. VCDL would be supportive of such a move. I prefer to let hunting organizations take care of hunting matters.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    The hunters are certainly invited to the BoS meeting to suggest dropping the entire ordinance off the books. VCDL would be supportive of such a move. I prefer to let hunting organizations take care of hunting matters.
    You're probably right even though it's not a hunting matter, rather a land use issue.
    I don't hunt in Chesterfield so it doesn't concern me, then again....I don't use Chesterfield parks either. Might as well attend to my own business.

    I just brought it up because another VCDL member who is effected by it, talked to me about the problem this evening.
    Last edited by peter nap; 09-12-2012 at 02:11 AM.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Well, it's not that they're targeting the hunters because they don't like hunters... they are targeting the hunters because according to 15.2-915, hunters are the only ones they are allowed to target!

    It really is just that simple.

    TFred

    You clearly have totally misunderstood my post. Nothing in my post is serious as I was referring to the folks with the last name Hunter... ie......Tab Hunter an actor from long ago.
    You and Paul are old enough to remember him.

    If you had bothered to read my post completely before commenting (and read peter's post that followed) you might have understood.

    It just that simple.



    BOT:
    Yep, the way it is wriiten the Guberment is once again stepping on the rights of folks...
    Last edited by Marco; 09-12-2012 at 10:32 AM.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    VCDL President

    The hunters are certainly invited to the BoS meeting to suggest dropping the entire ordinance off the books. VCDL would be supportive of such a move. I prefer to let hunting organizations take care of hunting matters.
    It's interesting that the largest segment of licensed gun owners (many people own guns but do not have a CHP or hunt) in Virginia, have just been told to fight our own fights.

    772,864 hunting licenses sold in our state in 2007

    314,456 concealed-handgun permits issued in our state, 2007

    But Skeet and Target shooters are deserving of assistance.


    VCDL Alert
    1. Big turnout needed to support County approval of a sporting clays range in Goochland! Antis will be there
    ************************************************** ****************

    What began as a tongue in cheek thread, has become enlightening.

    Last edited by peter nap; 09-12-2012 at 11:01 AM.

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    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's interesting that the largest segment of licensed gun owners (many people own guns but do not have a CHP or hunt) in Virginia, have just been told to fight our own fights.

    772,864 hunting licenses sold in our state in 2007

    314,456 concealed-handgun permits issued in our state, 2007

    But Skeet and Target shooters are deserving of assistance.


    ************************************************** ****************

    What began as a tongue in cheek thread, has become enlightening.


    But wasn't trap/skeet shooting just a way for hunters to improve there skills during the off season, and than became a sport.
    Give men cars and or guns and there's bound to be a competition sooner or later.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But wasn't trap/skeet shooting just a way for hunters to improve there skills during the off season, and than became a sport.
    Give men cars and or guns and there's bound to be a competition sooner or later.
    That was my point Marco. There seem to be some inconsistencies in policy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's interesting that the largest segment of licensed gun owners (many people own guns but do not have a CHP or hunt) in Virginia, have just been told to fight our own fights.

    772,864 hunting licenses sold in our state in 2007

    314,456 concealed-handgun permits issued in our state, 2007

    But Skeet and Target shooters are deserving of assistance.


    ************************************************** ****************

    What began as a tongue in cheek thread, has become enlightening.
    VCDL has never had hunting as part of its mission. We stepped into it a little bit if it dealt with hunting with firearms. We pushed and got a change to the law to allow CHP holders to carry for self-defense while hunting years ago.

    VCDL spent time and energy on the Sunday hunting issue two years ago figuring that hunters would want the freedom of choice as to whether they could hunt in Sundays or not. Boy, oh boy, did we find out that that isn't true! We caught flack from some hunting organizations, one quite big, who liked the Sunday ban and we were told to mind our own business. You could have pushed me over with a feather, but I learned a lesson from it.

    Since I don't hunt (haven't since I was around 18) and, to my knowledge, neither does anyone else on the Board, we really don't keep our finger on the pulse of hunters like we do the other aspect of gun ownership. Had I been a hunter I would probably have been aware of the conflict over Sunday hunting. It is just too easy to misread hunting issues when you are not immersed in it. For example, I could see fighting to get the Chesterfield provision removed only to find out that hunting organizations like the ordinance the way it is. You might say, "nah," but that's what I thought about Sunday hunting. If it is a big issue for hunters, why haven't they tried to get this ordinance removed before? Why haven't they tried to get the underlying enabling statute removed at the General Assembly?

    We are hardly throwing anyone to the wolves or leaving them to fend for themselves. There are a lot of hunting organizations out there and they can fight out these issues amongst themselves and earn their keep ;-) Meanwhile VCDL will watch all the other aspects of gun ownership.

    All that said, should the hunting organizations try to fix a firearms-related hunting law while speaking in one voice, VCDL would most likely add its voice to such a chorus.

  19. #19
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    VCDL has never had hunting as part of its mission. We stepped into it a little bit if it dealt with hunting with firearms. We pushed and got a change to the law to allow CHP holders to carry for self-defense while hunting years ago.

    VCDL spent time and energy on the Sunday hunting issue two years ago figuring that hunters would want the freedom of choice as to whether they could hunt in Sundays or not. Boy, oh boy, did we find out that that isn't true! We caught flack from some hunting organizations, one quite big, who liked the Sunday ban and we were told to mind our own business. You could have pushed me over with a feather, but I learned a lesson from it.

    Since I don't hunt (haven't since I was around 18) and, to my knowledge, neither does anyone else on the Board, we really don't keep our finger on the pulse of hunters like we do the other aspect of gun ownership. Had I been a hunter I would probably have been aware of the conflict over Sunday hunting. It is just too easy to misread hunting issues when you are not immersed in it. For example, I could see fighting to get the Chesterfield provision removed only to find out that hunting organizations like the ordinance the way it is. You might say, "nah," but that's what I thought about Sunday hunting. If it is a big issue for hunters, why haven't they tried to get this ordinance removed before? Why haven't they tried to get the underlying enabling statute removed at the General Assembly?

    We are hardly throwing anyone to the wolves or leaving them to fend for themselves. There are a lot of hunting organizations out there and they can fight out these issues amongst themselves and earn their keep ;-) Meanwhile VCDL will watch all the other aspects of gun ownership.

    All that said, should the hunting organizations try to fix a firearms-related hunting law while speaking in one voice, VCDL would most likely add its voice to such a chorus.
    I understand all that Philip and for the most part agree, although the CHP while hunting statute was a special slap in the face and probably shouldn't be discussed in public....but the issue with Chesterfield is not a HUNTING problem even though hunters will be and were, the first to complain. It concerns anyone that has land that touches county property.

    Anyway, no need to drag this out on the board. I'll pass on Chesterfield but plan on attending in some form at Goochland.

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    "CHP while hunting statute was a special slap in the face and probably shouldn't be discussed in public"

    That was back in the 90s, as I recall, before there was any real open carry movement. There was NO way to carry a gun at all for self-defense while hunting and we fixed that to allow for the way that most were carrying back then (and still are today). I have no problem defending that move.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Sent privately instead!

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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=peter nap;1824138]It's interesting that the largest segment of licensed gun owners (many people own guns but do not have a CHP or hunt) in Virginia, have just been told to fight our own fights.

    772,864 hunting licenses sold in our state in 2007

    314,456 concealed-handgun permits issued in our state, 2007
    In full disclosire mode: CHPs run for 5 years and a Hunting permit runs one. CHPs win since most hunters propably renewed several times more often during the test period.
    Appleseed, Virginia State Coordinator
    Are you a Rifleman yet?
    http://appleseedinfo.org

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=The Wolfhound;1824250]
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's interesting that the largest segment of licensed gun owners (many people own guns but do not have a CHP or hunt) in Virginia, have just been told to fight our own fights.

    772,864 hunting licenses sold in our state in 2007

    314,456 concealed-handgun permits issued in our state, 2007
    In full disclosire mode: CHPs run for 5 years and a Hunting permit runs one. CHPs win since most hunters propably renewed several times more often during the test period.
    Nope, the CHP number is total CHP's to that date.
    The hunting license is for that year only.
    You really have to be kidding to say that you think there are more CHP's issued than hunting licenses!

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    [QUOTE=peter nap;1824258]
    Quote Originally Posted by The Wolfhound View Post

    Nope, the CHP number is total CHP's to that date.
    The hunting license is for that year only.
    You really have to be kidding to say that you think there are more CHP's issued than hunting licenses!
    We are just now sitting at 300,000 active permits in VA. But that's nothing to sneeze at either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VCDL President View Post
    VCDL has never had hunting as part of its mission. We stepped into it a little bit if it dealt with hunting with firearms. We pushed and got a change to the law to allow CHP holders to carry for self-defense while hunting years ago.

    VCDL spent time and energy on the Sunday hunting issue two years ago figuring that hunters would want the freedom of choice as to whether they could hunt in Sundays or not. Boy, oh boy, did we find out that that isn't true! We caught flack from some hunting organizations, one quite big, who liked the Sunday ban and we were told to mind our own business. You could have pushed me over with a feather, but I learned a lesson from it.

    Since I don't hunt (haven't since I was around 18) and, to my knowledge, neither does anyone else on the Board, we really don't keep our finger on the pulse of hunters like we do the other aspect of gun ownership. Had I been a hunter I would probably have been aware of the conflict over Sunday hunting. It is just too easy to misread hunting issues when you are not immersed in it. For example, I could see fighting to get the Chesterfield provision removed only to find out that hunting organizations like the ordinance the way it is. You might say, "nah," but that's what I thought about Sunday hunting. If it is a big issue for hunters, why haven't they tried to get this ordinance removed before? Why haven't they tried to get the underlying enabling statute removed at the General Assembly?

    We are hardly throwing anyone to the wolves or leaving them to fend for themselves. There are a lot of hunting organizations out there and they can fight out these issues amongst themselves and earn their keep ;-) Meanwhile VCDL will watch all the other aspects of gun ownership.

    All that said, should the hunting organizations try to fix a firearms-related hunting law while speaking in one voice, VCDL would most likely add its voice to such a chorus.
    i'll address this one since i'm the one who leases land next to chesterfiled county land. I'll tell you why i've never spoken against this ordinance before because to be quite honest i never knew it existed as it is not listed in the Game regs. I knew about the no discharge of a firearm ordinance within 200yds of an occupied dwelling and i knew about no hunting with a bow closer than 100yds of an occupied dwelling w/o the owners permission, i know i can have a loaded rifle or shotgun on a public highway in chesterfield on one of my properties only because i lease property on both sides of the road(we used to have to unload to cross the road) all of these regs and more i know. I did not however know that it is illegal to merely be in possession of a firearm while hunting within 100yds of a county property line. what is hunting is it as peter says the possession of both a firearm and a hunting license? i'll back peter on this and say that its foolish to tell hunters that VCDL supports gun rights just not your gun rights.

    I can understand a no discharge ordinance IN the park. Why is it illegal to merely possess a firearm within 100yds of a park if i am hunting. I don't understand is the double speak about hunting vs carrying. Oh i understand that the county is allowed to pass this ordinance because it deals with hunting per se. What i really don't understand is the reluctance to oppose this issue as it still boils down to a firearms carry issue. It doesn't matter in the real world whether I am hunting or merely walking my dog. I can bow hunt within that 100yds just not have a firearm. So this issue is strictly a firearms issue not a hunting issue. To say that this is an issue for the hunters to take care of if they wan't it changed is the type of bullsh!t NRA double speak i'm not used to hearing from VCDL. I understand that opposing this ordinance may be a loser and nothing can be done. But i don't understand why it should not be opposed unless we are afraid of losing and are willing to sidestep issues based on whether they are winnable or not. It also shouldn't matter whether there are any hunters on the board of VCDL, i'd be more concerned over the number of hunters who are members of VCDL.

    I'll explain the Sunday hunting thing, self proclaimed(i have a witness) VCDL founder and protector Kirby Burch(you know he handed the orginization over to you and wrote the whole concealed carry ordinance and made it happen all by himself again i have a witness, he also created the internet not really but my witness is of the same opinion) is against sunday hunting because he wants dog hunting to remain untouched. He realizes that the chances of this drop dramatically if dog hunters are running their idiot hounds around the meeting house while church is in session.

    "No HUNTER shall transport, possess or carry a loaded firearm within 100 yards of any property line of any county public school or county park, except as otherwise permitted by state law." my first question is does the state give the county the power to erect this mythincal 100yd barrier to guns around the park. i understand if it is within the park. i'm wondering do they actually have the power to encroach on my land. i mean state law allows me to hunt my land right?

    edit: never mind they do have the authority 29.1-527. Counties, cities or towns may prohibit hunting near public schools and county, city, town or regional parks.

    The governing body of any county, city or town may prohibit by ordinance, shooting or hunting with a firearm, or prohibit hunters from traversing an area while in possession of a loaded firearm, within 100 yards of any property line of a public school or a county, city, town or regional park. The governing body may, in such ordinance, provide that any violation thereof shall be a Class 4 misdemeanor. Nothing in this section shall give any county, city or town the authority to enforce such an ordinance on lands within a national or state park or forest, or wildlife management area.

    (1985, c. 485, 29-144.5:1; 1987, c. 488.)
    Last edited by 67GT390FB; 09-12-2012 at 05:04 PM.

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