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Thread: Evidence suggests Colorado Shooter selected theater because of no guns policy

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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    Evidence suggests Colorado Shooter selected theater because of no guns policy

    I received this from Nik Clark (President of Wisconsin Carry, Inc.) a few minutes ago:



    Greetings in Freedom:

    An interesting opinion piece was published on Foxnews.com that contained research pertaining to the Colorado movie theater shooting. See article at the following link:

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...emark-theater/

    Pro right-to-carry advocates have often speculated that mass-shooters intentionally select locations where law-abiding carry is banned because they are "safer" for mad-men to go on shooting rampages. (Columbine, Virginia Tech, etc)

    Evidence researched for the above piece strongly suggests this may be true. From the article:

    (quote)
    So why did the killer pick the Cinemark theater? You might think that it was the one closest to the killerís apartment. Or, that it was the one with the largest audience.

    Yet, neither explanation is right. Instead, out of all the movie theaters within 20 minutes of his apartment showing the new Batman movie that night, **it was the only one where guns were banned.** In Colorado, individuals with permits can carry concealed handgun in most malls, stores, movie theaters, and restaurants. But private businesses can determine whether permit holders can carry guns on their private property.
    Most movie theaters allow permit holders carrying guns. But the Cinemark movie theater was the only one with a sign posted at the theaterís entrance.

    According to mapquest.com and movies.com, there were seven movie theaters showing "The Dark Knight Rises" on July 20th within 20 minutes of the killerís apartment at 1690 Paris St, Aurora, Colorado. At 4 miles and an 8-minute car ride, the Cinemarkís Century Theater wasn't the closest. Another theater was only 1.2 miles (3 minutes) away.
    There was also a theater just slightly further away, 10 minutes. It is the "home of Colorado's largest auditorium," according to their movie hotline greeting message. The potentially huge audience ought to have been attractive to someone trying to kill as many people as possible. Four other theaters were 18 minutes, two at 19 minutes, and 20 minutes away. But all of those theaters allowed permitted concealed handguns.
    So why would a mass shooter pick a place that bans guns? The answer should be obvious, though it apparently is not clear to the media Ė disarming law-abiding citizens leaves them as sitting ducks.

    (end quote)

    We know the shooter in this instance planned his attack with exceptional attention to detail (rigging explosives at his apartment) AND he went to unusual lengths to try to protect himself from being shot (bullet proof body armor, helmet, and arm and leg protection). Every logical analysis of this situation would conclude that it seems virtually inconceivable that the "no-gun policy" of this theater was not a primary factor in the shooters selection of this location. He didn't want to encounter an armed citizen and get shot.

    Wisconsin Carry encourages our members to share this information with businesses who have chosen to post "no guns" signs as it seems very plausible that those signs could well attract criminals who seek defenseless victims.

    Carry On,

    Nik Clark
    Chairman/President - Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
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    Regular Member OldCurlyWolf's Avatar
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    What about ease of illicit exit and re-entry? It would have mattered if I was the planner.
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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    he went to unusual lengths to try to protect himself from being shot (bullet proof body armor, helmet, and arm and leg protection).
    Just for the sake of accuracy, it was later discovered that his vest was not ballistic. It was a tactical vest for which he paid $106 online.

    http://fox2now.com/2012/07/21/colora...r-in-st-louis/

    http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2...lletproof.html

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldCurlyWolf View Post
    What about ease of illicit exit and re-entry? It would have mattered if I was the planner.
    That door exists for exiting during both emergency and non-emergency situations. Re-entry through that door, however, is typically forbidden.

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    Newbie Deacon Blues's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    Just for the sake of accuracy, it was later discovered that his vest was not ballistic. It was a tactical vest for which he paid $106 online.
    I think this is especially relevant to the thread; it seems that Mr. Holmes was quite concerned about unarmed resistance. He obviously didn't want to take a hit to the head, arms, legs, or groin... but bullets apparently weren't a concern. With you combine the fact that he selected a non-ballistic vest and that he picked the only nearby theater with a posted no gun policy, it sure makes it look like his whole plan depended on his being the only one with a gun.

    Same old story, same old song and dance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    Just for the sake of accuracy, it was later discovered that his vest was not ballistic. It was a tactical vest for which he paid $106 online.

    http://fox2now.com/2012/07/21/colora...r-in-st-louis/

    http://claytonecramer.blogspot.com/2...lletproof.html
    The Aurora, CO Police Chiefís description of what suspect James Holmes was wearing during the shootings struck a heart-wrenching chord for the owners of the on-line tactical gear store in Chesterfield, Cat-5 Commerce, which does business online as Tactical Gear.com.

    Why would the owners of the tactical gear store have any emotional attachment to the incident ... I'm sure the gun dealer just said "eh?" As to if the guy picked the theater because it does not allow carry, we don't know ... all the stuff here is conjecture and opinion based on facts not from the shooter and only facts of theaters that don't allow carry ... maybe he got ripped off on popcorn there, who knows?

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    The Aurora, CO Police Chiefís description of what suspect James Holmes was wearing during the shootings struck a heart-wrenching chord for the owners of the on-line tactical gear store in Chesterfield, Cat-5 Commerce, which does business online as Tactical Gear.com.

    Why would the owners of the tactical gear store have any emotional attachment to the incident ... I'm sure the gun dealer just said "eh?"

    Personally, I'd be kinda horrified if something I sold to someone was used in a crime like this one. I'm surprised that you don't get that.


    As to if the guy picked the theater because it does not allow carry, we don't know ... all the stuff here is conjecture and opinion based on facts not from the shooter and only facts of theaters that don't allow carry ... maybe he got ripped off on popcorn there, who knows?
    Just because one cannot prove or disprove a theory doesn't make it wrong. The facts as we know them completely fit this theory, and none of the facts indicate that this theory is likely to be false.... if it quacks like a duck... prolly a damn duck.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    Personally, I'd be kinda horrified if something I sold to someone was used in a crime like this one. I'm surprised that you don't get that.
    I don't get it either. Would you be willing to explain it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by okiebryan View Post
    Personally, I'd be kinda horrified if something I sold to someone was used in a crime like this one. I'm surprised that you don't get that.
    .
    Then you should not hold a ffl. Not the ffl's fault, right? Why would the ffl have any sincere remorse ... like a car dealer who sold a car to a guy who runs over 100 school children with it.

    Ditto for other sellers selling legally. The gov't wants you to feel remorse, as it indicates responsibility.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Someone, at some point, is going to do something bad, with something someone sold them.
    It's axiomatic!

    Do not place guilt on the person who did no wrong.
    It's as anti as idiots who would want to sue gun manufactures for crimes done with guns.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

    We are fast approaching the stage of the ultimate inversion: the stage where the government is free to do anything it pleases, while the citizens may act only by permission - Ayn Rand

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    Regular Member Mark 1911's Avatar
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    "Evidence" that suggests Colorado Shooter selected theater because of no guns policy?

    Not to be flippant, but does "Chicago" suggest anything? (as in pick a place where the victims won't be shooting back).

    In a shooting that was planned as meticulously as the Aurora CO shooting was, it would be extremely naive to think that the shooter did not work a major detail like the theater's "no guns policy" into his plan.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack House View Post
    That door exists for exiting during both emergency and non-emergency situations. Re-entry through that door, however, is typically forbidden.
    Yes.

    Always get permission before using the back door.

    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    Regular Member Jack House's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoWeenie View Post
    Yes.

    Always get permission before using the back door.

    I love innuendo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark 1911 View Post
    "Evidence" that suggests Colorado Shooter selected theater because of no guns policy?

    Not to be flippant, but does "Chicago" suggest anything? (as in pick a place where the victims won't be shooting back).

    In a shooting that was planned as meticulously as the Aurora CO shooting was, it would be extremely naive to think that the shooter did not work a major detail like the theater's "no guns policy" into his plan.
    Logical and consistent with other facts does not equal fact to that point...anyone have a statement by the police or shooter that because of the no firearms policy of the theater, it was chosen?

    Does not sound like he planned too well , or he would have used an AK-47 and wore armor

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Someone, at some point, is going to do something bad, with something someone sold them.
    It's axiomatic!

    Do not place guilt on the person who did no wrong.
    You're missing the point by 180 degrees. No one is placing guilt. Those of us who're decent human beings, with compassion and feelings towards our fellow man, however, would quite naturally and very understandably be aghast if something we sold to another was used for a horrific crime.

    The fact that you and a couple others here don't feel a thing bothers us. It suggests an element of a pathological nature.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    I don't get it either. Would you be willing to explain it?
    Well I mean If I sold a gun that was used in such a terrible incident I'd probably feel sick to my stomach, It's not a rational reaction, but being on solid legal ground doesn't equate to a clean conscious. Think about cops and armed citizens who kill in self-defense, most feel overwhelming guilt and shame at themselves following the shooting, at least most I've read about on Ayoob Files that is.....

    just being legally in the clear won't clear the emotional reaction, they're two separate things.
    I don't blame any of the sellers of this clowns gear for what he did, Holmes and Holmes alone is responsible for his act, but it would not be unexpected if someone felt guilt over helping him even if they had no idea
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by since9 View Post
    No one is placing guilt.
    Those of us who're decent human beings.....would quite naturally and very understandably be aghast if something we sold to another was used for a horrific crime.

    The fact that you and a couple others here don't feel a thing bothers us. It suggests an element of a pathological nature.
    Your statement makes no sense. Your not placing guilt.... but if the person doesn't feel guilt he's pathological?

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Well I mean If I sold a gun that was used in such a terrible incident I'd probably feel sick to my stomach, It's not a rational reaction, but being on solid legal ground doesn't equate to a clean conscious. Think about cops and armed citizens who kill in self-defense, most feel overwhelming guilt and shame at themselves following the shooting, at least most I've read about on Ayoob Files that is.....
    just being legally in the clear won't clear the emotional reaction, they're two separate things.
    I don't blame any of the sellers of this clowns gear for what he did, Holmes and Holmes alone is responsible for his act, but it would not be unexpected if someone felt guilt over helping him even if they had no idea
    So let me get this straight. Your pretty sure of having a "not rational reaction" to something that has never happened to you before? And your pretty sure that "not rational reaction" would not be unexpected?
    It should be unexpected and condemned.
    Feeling guilty, and placing guilt on others where none is deserved is an extremely dangerous ideology. It is a terrible justification for blurring the distinction of right and wrong.
    "I support the ban on assault weapons" - Donald Trump

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twoskinsonemanns View Post
    Your statement makes no sense. Your not placing guilt.... but if the person doesn't feel guilt he's pathological?



    So let me get this straight. Your pretty sure of having a "not rational reaction" to something that has never happened to you before? And your pretty sure that "not rational reaction" would not be unexpected?
    It should be unexpected and condemned.
    Feeling guilty, and placing guilt on others where none is deserved is an extremely dangerous ideology. It is a terrible justification for blurring the distinction of right and wrong.
    How did I place guilt on anyone else, I didn't condemn anyone who felt no guilt nor did I say anyone else was guilty, I'm saying it's not unexpected for someone to feel guilty even if they had no control or did nothing wrong. I read an Ayoob File store a few years ago about a police detective who shot a man in an interrogation room the camera in the room showed clearly the man drew on the detective first (he came in willingly as a witness he didn't get arrested, which is why he wasn't searched) and the detective drew his revolver and shot the interviewee. As justified as it comes. and yet this detective described feeling incredible guilt and shame, to the point in which he felt ashamed to show his face in public, and to where he didn't feel worthy to enter his church. legal justification does not clear the conscious, for most people that is. some people have no issues to speak of, but most people will. So your idea of mocking the owners of this shop, see you accuse us of placing guilt, and yet you appear to openly mocking the owners of this shop who do feel guilty, who is really placing what on who?
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Blaming oneself for the independent, and unrelated to you, actions of others is a weakness.
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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Logical and consistent with other facts does not equal fact to that point...anyone have a statement by the police or shooter that because of the no firearms policy of the theater, it was chosen?

    Does not sound like he planned too well , or he would have used an AK-47 and wore armor
    I would agree if the plan was really to kill as many people as possible. That and the AK-47 ammo normally costs less than AR-15 ammo.

    I believe that this was a staged event and that is why he submitted to police so easily.
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    Regular Member The Wolfhound's Avatar
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    Huh?

    [QUOTE=Freedom1Man;1830931] ...and the AK-47 ammo normally costs less than AR-15 ammo.

    Where on the earth is this possible? 7.62x39 is cheaper and more abundant than 5.56x45. The former Communist block are selling billions of rounds of surplus.
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    And this is why people should carry everywhere they go. Not sure how other states work, but in my state, those signs don't mean a thing. We can still carry. Only after we're verbally asked to leave, we must leave - if we don't it's a $25 trespassing fine. And if you CC, you'll never be asked to leave.

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    Regular Member twoskinsonemanns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    So your idea of mocking the owners of this shop, see you accuse us of placing guilt, and yet you appear to openly mocking the owners of this shop who do feel guilty, who is really placing what on who?
    Where did I mock them?
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    Smile In an attempt to clarify...

    Explaining what one means can occasionally present some difficulties. This is particularly true in spontaneously written communications. The words we choose in those explanations can frequently distort the message received by others, either because those words were poorly chosen, or because the reader's frame of reference and/or worldview differs significantly from that of the writer.

    I think what the several members are trying to say about the Aurora massacre is that the folks that are peripherally involved in supplying Holmes with his equipment - especially the firearms - are naturally feeling some degree of emotional upset over the misuse of those guns. This upset does not necessarily have to be "guilt", nor does it have to be overwhelming. IMHO, the emotional reactions probably ran somewhere between "Oh, s**t!! I sold that to him! Oh, well... what's for dinner, baby?", to (perhaps) some undeserved entry-level, nagging (but short-term) "guilt". The emotional reactions to this thread seem fairly wide-spread, especially when it comes to the non-accusations. Emotional reactions are individual-specific.

    Emotional reactions to a specific incident are not universally shared by the observers of the incident. Some will have the same reaction (as during the Twin Towers incident - the vast majority were appalled), yet there were a few who thought those 3,000+ people deserved to die simply for being there. But, no matter how inappropriate the reaction may seem to others, whatever emotion one experiences is valid... at least for that individual. Just sayin'. Pax...
    Last edited by Gil223; 10-10-2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: typo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil223 View Post
    ...
    Dang it! Who allowed rationality to creep into this thread?

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