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Thread: Use caution with glove-box carry on school grounds . . .

  1. #1
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Use caution with glove-box carry on school grounds . . .

    I am an employee for a public school system in Virginia. I was planning to start keeping a pistol in my glove box (legally) while working, so I'd have it on my way to and from work. I thought I had better check my school district's "Policies" and found this gem:

    STAFF WEAPONS IN SCHOOL

    No one may possess or use any firearm or any weapon, as defined in Policy JFCD, on school property (including school vehicles), on that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or any school bus without authorization of the Superintendent or his designee.

    Violation of this policy by an employee will result in appropriate personnel action up to and including dismissal. Violation of this policy by others will result in actions up to and including a prohibition against the violator returning to school property. In addition, illegal conduct will be reported as required by law.
    Now I wonder, what's the point of repealing "school property" laws when the schools themselves seem to want to be vulnerable!

    Hear endeth the rant.

  2. #2
    Activist Member nuc65's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    I am an employee for a public school system in Virginia. I was planning to start keeping a pistol in my glove box (legally) while working, so I'd have it on my way to and from work. I thought I had better check my school district's "Policies" and found this gem:



    Now I wonder, what's the point of repealing "school property" laws when the schools themselves seem to want to be vulnerable!

    Hear endeth the rant.
    It seems as if the policy is not talking about private vehicles, but school vehicles (those own or operated by the school district). Is there anyone you could ask for clarification? Or maybe ask if following the law regarding storage in your private vehicle is against the policy?
    Last edited by nuc65; 09-11-2012 at 01:31 PM.
    When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.

    excerpt By Marko Kloos (http://munchkinwrangler.wordpress.com/?s=major+caudill)

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    It seems as if the policy is not talking about private vehicles, but school vehicles (those own or operated by the school district). Is there anyone you could ask for clarification? Or maybe ask if following the law regarding storage in your private vehicle is against the policy?
    No, it looks like it applies to private vehicles also but only for Staff and or Students.
    It's been a year so I don't remember what the parking lot bill said, but it may supersede the policy.

  4. #4
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    No, it looks like it applies to private vehicles also but only for Staff and or Students.
    Students are covered in a separate section. I read it, loosely, as "Staff will be fired, non-staff will be banned from school property. I may be paranoid though.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It's been a year so I don't remember what the parking lot bill said, but it may supersede the policy.
    I may be wrong, but I don't think the parking lot bill will help me much, as it pertains to people picking up or dropping off kids, without leaving the vehicle.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    No worries here in Greene County.
    The sherrif's office is well aware about the secured container law and loaded firearms.
    My wife took the FREE firearms class (excellent class)offered and taught by a county deputy and in the class he told folks about the exception to the law for non permit holders..

    He even told folks about the non issue GFSZ and church carry.
    He didn't promote OC but he didn't say anything negative either...
    Had lots of VCDL apps for students but his gun info cards were out dated ...luckily for him I told my wife to take a stack with her to class.


    ***********
    Ban me.
    I'd pull my kids from public school and let them loss federal funding and sue them.
    Last edited by Marco; 09-11-2012 at 01:52 PM.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


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    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nuc65 View Post
    Is there anyone you could ask for clarification? Or maybe ask if following the law regarding storage in your private vehicle is against the policy?
    Maybe. I'm still trying to rub the right elbows for my job advancement, and I don't want the wrong person to find out I'm "one of those gun nuts". These are mostly liberal arts majors after all.

    I'll try to do some digging.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Marco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    Maybe. I'm still trying to rub the right elbows for my job advancement, and I don't want the wrong person to find out I'm "one of those gun nuts". These are mostly liberal arts majors after all.

    I'll try to do some digging.
    Is there no place to park off school property???
    How and why would they find out about your firearm that's secured in your car?
    I learned along time ago unless you work at a place where folks openly carry guns or sell guns don't talk about guns at work, no good will be fall you.
    Last edited by Marco; 09-11-2012 at 01:56 PM.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

  8. #8
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    Students are covered in a separate section. I read it, loosely, as "Staff will be fired, non-staff will be banned from school property. I may be paranoid though.



    I may be wrong, but I don't think the parking lot bill will help me much, as it pertains to people picking up or dropping off kids, without leaving the vehicle.
    Different bill.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    I am an employee for a public school system in Virginia. I was planning to start keeping a pistol in my glove box (legally) while working, so I'd have it on my way to and from work. I thought I had better check my school district's "Policies" and found this gem:



    Now I wonder, what's the point of repealing "school property" laws when the schools themselves seem to want to be vulnerable!

    Hear endeth the rant.
    How recent is this policy manual?

    The "Parking Lot Bill" may supercede it, but school districts have some latitude that, say public works doesn't, when it comes to defining rules of conduct for its employees, and they will err on the side of caution to keep from getting their asses sued off.

    I could, for example, park my car in the school parking lot with my loaded pistol in the glove box without fear of reprisal from the school district (or the law for that matter). But I'm not subject to the school's employee rules.

    If the policy manual conflicts with state law, you could protest, but you're probably right about being seen in a negative light.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  10. #10
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Different bill.
    Got it.

  11. #11
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    Is there no place to park off school property???
    No there isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    How and why would they find out about your firearm that's secured in your car?
    I learned along time ago unless you work at a place where folks openly carry guns or sell guns don't talk about guns at work, no good will be fall you.
    I agree about casually discussing if and what I am CCing. It never leads to any good.
    The "If I don't tell anyone, no one will ever know, and I will have nothing to worry about" line of reasoning has crossed my mind. The problem is that it only takes one person to say "I think so-and-so has a gun in his car", whether they actually know this or not, to get me fired. My decision is whether I'm willing to risk that or not.

  12. #12
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B0wman View Post
    My decision is whether I'm willing to risk that or not.
    That's always a difficult question BOwman.

    My opinion FWIW is that we all make small sacrifices for our future.

    Some people are terrified to set foot out of their house without a gun. That's a shame. Some of us carry all the time because we can and want to.

    Weigh the odds of actually needing to use that gun during the forbidden time, verses the consequences of it being discovered and or...just a moral obligation you feel to follow the guidelines of your employer.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Let's take a step back for a moment.


    "No one may possess or use any firearm or any weapon, as defined in Policy JFCD, on school property (including school vehicles), on that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or any school bus without authorization of the Superintendent or his designee."

    That is nearly a word-for-word quote of 18.2-308.1 Section B:

    If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    "Violation of this policy by an employee will result in appropriate personnel action up to and including dismissal. Violation of this policy by others will result in actions up to and including a prohibition against the violator returning to school property. In addition, illegal conduct will be reported as required by law."

    The question that begs to be asked is, why wouldn't 15.2-915 apply here? Is not a local school board, an extension of the local government? Why is any public school allowed to have any policy regarding firearms that apply to members of the general public? Remember, 15.2-915 does not say that you may have local ordinances or policies equal to the state code, it says you may not have any, that are not explicitly authorized by the General Assembly.

    15.2-915 specifically allows employee policies, but not policies that affect "others." And with regard to employees, it seems that if they stored it in a secured container within their locked vehicle, it would still pull in the exemption to the code section listed above.

    This policy seems to be in direct conflict with 15.2-915, not only by its mere existence, but in content as well.

    TFred

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    wouldn't this apply?

    15.2-915. Control of Firearms; Applicability to Authorities and Local Governmental Agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and
    no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer,
    ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof
    other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to
    firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express
    authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and
    conditions of employment of the workforce. However, no locality shall adopt any workplace rule, other than
    for the purposes of a community services board or behavioral health authority as defined in 37.2-100, that
    prevents an employee of that locality from storing at that locality's workplace a lawfully possessed firearm
    and ammunition in a locked personal, private motor vehicle.
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a lawenforcement officer, as defined in 9.1-101, from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local
    governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail, juvenile
    detention facility, or state-governed entity, department, or agency.

  15. #15
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyras21 View Post
    wouldn't this apply?

    15.2-915. Control of Firearms; Applicability to Authorities and Local Governmental Agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and
    no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer,
    ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof
    other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to
    firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express
    authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and
    conditions of employment of the workforce. However, no locality shall adopt any workplace rule, other than
    for the purposes of a community services board or behavioral health authority as defined in 37.2-100, that
    prevents an employee of that locality from storing at that locality's workplace a lawfully possessed firearm
    and ammunition in a locked personal, private motor vehicle.
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a lawenforcement officer, as defined in 9.1-101, from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local
    governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail, juvenile
    detention facility, or state-governed entity, department, or agency.
    That was the bill I was thinking of, thanks!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyras21 View Post
    wouldn't this apply?

    15.2-915. Control of Firearms; Applicability to Authorities and Local Governmental Agencies.

    A. No locality shall adopt or enforce any ordinance, resolution or motion, as permitted by 15.2-1425, and
    no agent of such locality shall take any administrative action, governing the purchase, possession, transfer,
    ownership, carrying, storage or transporting of firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof
    other than those expressly authorized by statute. For purposes of this section, a statute that does not refer to
    firearms, ammunition, or components or combination thereof, shall not be construed to provide express
    authorization.

    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a locality from adopting workplace rules relating to terms and
    conditions of employment of the workforce. However, no locality shall adopt any workplace rule, other than
    for the purposes of a community services board or behavioral health authority as defined in 37.2-100, that
    prevents an employee of that locality from storing at that locality's workplace a lawfully possessed firearm
    and ammunition in a locked personal, private motor vehicle.
    Nothing in this section shall prohibit a lawenforcement officer, as defined in 9.1-101, from acting within the scope of his duties.

    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local
    governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail, juvenile
    detention facility, or state-governed entity, department, or agency.
    That is the law I was referencing in my post. But remember, 18.2-308.1 generally prohibits anyone from carrying a firearm onto school property, even school employees. That is why you need to also use the secured container exception mentioned in 18.2-308, B10.

    TFred

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    But remember, 18.2-308.1 generally prohibits anyone from carrying a firearm onto school property, even school employees.
    Does it?

    From 18.2-308.1

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to [snip]

    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle

    [snip]
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  18. #18
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    That is the law I was referencing in my post. But remember, 18.2-308.1 generally prohibits anyone from carrying a firearm onto school property, even school employees. That is why you need to also use the secured container exception mentioned in 18.2-308, B10.

    TFred
    That was what I was getting at early when I couldn't remember the bill number TFred.

    As long as it is lawfully stored in the car, it appears the parking lot exemption would take over.

    That still doesn't answer if it's worth risking having his record dotted with "had a gun" comments. It could well cost him a future job even though he did nothing wrong.

  19. #19
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylde007 View Post
    Does it?

    From 18.2-308.1

    The provisions of this section shall not apply to [snip]

    (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle

    [snip]
    I have generally viewed this section more for transporting, not for carrying. Generally not acceptable to unload and store, and that is not required for the "secured container" exception found in 18.2-308.

    Not to say I have never done this, I have, but... it's not generally preferred to have to stop and unload and stow before you enter the parking lot.

    TFred

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    That was what I was getting at early when I couldn't remember the bill number TFred.

    As long as it is lawfully stored in the car, it appears the parking lot exemption would take over.

    That still doesn't answer if it's worth risking having his record dotted with "had a gun" comments. It could well cost him a future job even though he did nothing wrong.
    B0wman:

    As I understand things, teachers are (typically) hired each year by individual contracts. Does your contract spell out any conditions of employment relating to possession of "illegal items", such as firearms, or does it just reference the Handbook?

    IANAL, but you could be waiving your rights.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  21. #21
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    B0wman:

    As I understand things, teachers are (typically) hired each year by individual contracts. Does your contract spell out any conditions of employment relating to possession of "illegal items", such as firearms, or does it just reference the Handbook?

    IANAL, but you could be waiving your rights.
    I don't have the contract on hand. I will have to dig it up to check. My suspicion is that I have agreed to abide by these "policies" when I signed the contract.

  22. #22
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Thank you all! This is great information!

  23. #23
    Regular Member gmuguy's Avatar
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    just wait "user" should chime in any minute now with some good info

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all
    Does your contract spell out any conditions of employment relating to possession of "illegal items", such as firearms, or does it just reference the Handbook?
    And if it just says "illegal items", then arguably you're safe storing your pistol in your car.
    Unfortunately, they're probably sneaky & underhanded enough to spell out some examples of what they think is illegal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
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    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member B0wman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    B0wman:

    As I understand things, teachers are (typically) hired each year by individual contracts. Does your contract spell out any conditions of employment relating to possession of "illegal items", such as firearms, or does it just reference the Handbook?

    IANAL, but you could be waiving your rights.
    Found the contract.

    This employment is subject to all laws and policies, rules and regulations of the School Board and the Superintendent now in existence or hereafter enacted during this employment.
    This doesn't bode well.

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