My first encounter - East Wenatchee Safeway

FrayedString · Sep 14, 2012

Well I had my first encounter about 25 minutes ago. My wife and I were out for an evening walk as we often do and she mentioned that she would like some orange juice, so we adjusted our walking route to take us to the Safeway in East Wenatchee. As always, while we were there she thought of several other items she wanted to pick up so we walked around the store. Being after 9:30 the store was pretty empty, but there were a few other customers. I was OCing my Ruger SR9c in my Fobus paddle holster. We wandered from end to end of the store a couple times before I was approached by two employees.

One of them was named "George K." and his name tag had "Supervisor" printed on it below his name - he is the only one who did any talking. He first greeted us politely as he walked past so I turned and greeted him as well. He then asked me if I "had a permit for that." I informed him that I did not need a permit to carry my firearm openly. He then asked me if I could put it in my car or cover it up. I informed him that we had in fact walked to the store so I could not comply with putting it in my car, and asked him why I needed to cover it up since my impression was that Safeway's corporate policy was to follow state law, and that the open carry of a firearm is perfectly legal in Washington state.

George replied by saying that I needed to be considerate of the other customers and that he had had four customers come tell him that there was a man walking around with a gun. I again reminded him of state law as well as my understanding of Safeway's corporate policy, but he reiterated that he would like me to cover up. I went ahead and covered up as I did have my CPL in my wallet and we purchased our items and walked home. I know there has recently been another Safeway encounter so I was wondering if anyone had any advice before I simply print the Safeway policy email from 2010 from NWCDL and take the store manager an OC pamphlet.

Thanks,
Alan

Bookman · Sep 14, 2012

You were absolutely in the right there. I also, personally, think you handled the encounter well. You got the merchandise you'd gone in for and avoided an unnecessary p_ss_ng contest. The next step would probably be to contact the day manager, who would be the overall store manager, and discuss the situation with him/her. What you do from there should be determined by their response. My bet is that the night manager will be informed that he was out of line.

SpyderTattoo · Sep 14, 2012

Also, something I and many others here do, is to not carry your CPL with you when you're OC'ing. That way you have an out by informing them that it would be a crime for you to conceal the gun. I've personally done this with Kent police.

FrayedString · Sep 14, 2012

SpyderTattoo said:
Also, something I and many others here do, is to not carry your CPL with you when you're OC'ing. That way you have an out by informing them that it would be a crime for you to conceal the gun. I've personally done this with Kent police.

Spyder - I couldn't agree more, I wished I had been in that situation. Unfortunately I live within 8 blocks of a school, and our walks sometimes take us within the gun free "safe" zone (1000 feet of the school), so taking my CPL on our walks is pretty much a requirement just in case.

HandyHamlet · Sep 14, 2012

Bookman said:
. You got the merchandise you'd gone in for and avoided an unnecessary p_ss_ng contest.

Uh, say what? How was a ******* contest avoided exactly. He was bullied by an employee and capitulated to asinine demands. All while happily giving up his hard earned cash as a reward for being hassled and lied to. Even though he knew he was in the right.

What's more important? A few bucks worth of stuff and feeding the ego of a retard or your Right guaranteed under the Constitution?

TheGunMan · Sep 14, 2012

I am surprized

Wow, I am surprized. I have been in there many times and never bothered. I also dont hink or believe 4 people came up and said something. Wenatchee and East Wenatchee have a high persent of people that carry. I think the safeway guy was feeling mighty and wanted to show it. I will be going in there today just to show support. Please talk to the day manager and let us know what is said.

FrayedString · Sep 14, 2012

HandyHamlet said:
Uh, say what? How was a ******* contest avoided exactly. He was bullied by an employee and capitulated to asinine demands. All while happily giving up his hard earned cash as a reward for being hassled and lied to. Even though he knew he was in the right.

What's more important? A few bucks worth of stuff and feeding the ego of a retard or your Right guaranteed under the Constitution?

I guess I didn't see the point in being a complete jerk to the guy. Sure, he was likely in the wrong - but what would have been gained by getting into a big fight with him in the middle of the dairy isle? I now have a chance to follow up in a peaceful manner with the store manager and explain the situation and ask that he update his management staff on Safeway's policies, which will likely solve the problem for quite awhile. Additionally, both the night manager and day manager will see that I am a calm and respectful person; not some hot headed gun-toting guy who just wants to be a hard***. Just my thoughts, anyway.

I was mainly curious if anyone knew if there were any new corporate replies from Safeway, since acmariner99 recently had a similar encounter of his own at a different Safeway. Though I have noticed the follow up thread regarding his encounter and it looks like the store manager himself directly contacted corporate, as well as the other local managers, and became aware of Safeway's policies on his own. Hopefully my story ends in a similar manner.

Alan

deanf · Sep 14, 2012

A few bucks worth of stuff and feeding the ego of a retard or your Right guaranteed under the Constitution?

There is no constitutional issue here. He was there by license. It sounds like the Safeway employee exercised his authority as a representative of the property owner to change the terms of the license on the spot.

Vitaeus · Sep 14, 2012

My personal opinions differ, but only part I will comment on is, don't spend money after being accosted like that. Cover or not as you deem necessary.

davidmcbeth · Sep 14, 2012

HandyHamlet said:
Uh, say what? How was a ******* contest avoided exactly. He was bullied by an employee and capitulated to asinine demands. All while happily giving up his hard earned cash as a reward for being hassled and lied to. Even though he knew he was in the right.

What's more important? A few bucks worth of stuff and feeding the ego of a retard or your Right guaranteed under the Constitution?

Not politely, but nicely put.

Keep the faith!

ATM · Sep 14, 2012

FrayedString said:
...George replied by saying that I needed to be considerate of the other customers and that he had had four customers come tell him that there was a man walking around with a gun...

So the implication was that carrying an unhidden gun is somehow inconsiderate to others. I'd like to hear him attempt to support such a notion as you were the one peacefully shopping and minding your own business.

Also, noticing or even mentioning a man walking around with an unhidden gun hardly equates to a complaint nor should it have warranted any response or action from the supervisor unless he had some personal motivation to create a problem for a customer where none previously existed.

I'd have politely declined to cover. If asked to leave at that point, I'd leave the unpurchased goods there with the supervisor and calmly ask for a card and/or manager's name to follow up with on my way out. At least make him sweat it a bit for the rest of the evening.

FrayedString · Sep 14, 2012

Well I just stopped in to the store hoping to talk to the store manager, but it turns out he is out today and will be returning on Monday. Sadly I'm going to be out of town for work all next week, so the follow up on this may have to happen over the phone.

FrayedString · Sep 14, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
You might want to look at 18 USC 922 (q)(2)(B)(ii). There is no requirement to have your license in your possession to be exempt from the 1000' School Zone Law.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

Good catch, I hadn't noticed that wording before.

Schlepnier · Sep 14, 2012

you handled it pretty well up to a certain point...and this is were i think you went wrong

George replied by saying that I needed to be considerate of the other customers

i would have replied that perhaps they needed to be considerate of me exercising my legal rights, since they have no inalienable right to "fell good"

but he reiterated that he would like me to cover up. I went ahead and covered up

I would have replied, i understand your point however i am not obligated to comply unless you wish me to leave your store . at wich point i will file a formal complaint with your supervisors.

It sounds like the Safeway employee exercised his authority as a representative of the property owner to change the terms of the license on the spot.

Except the little fact that he does not have the authority to disreguard or over-ride corporate policy, only the sorporate office can do that. especially if he wants to keep his job. if he demanded you leave then do so, however the follow up will be very bad for him.

Believe me, if i have an issue with a manager at work and i have to take it "upstairs" they start sweating.

Remeber the idea here is to get people accustomed to open carry on a regular basis not hide it from them.

hermannr · Sep 14, 2012

deanf said:
There is no constitutional issue here. He was there by license. It sounds like the Safeway employee exercised his authority as a representative of the property owner to change the terms of the license on the spot.

I do believe you are mostly wrong here. It is well known that this persons employer (Safeway) says that their stores will follow whatever the state law is...therefore, the manager was going beyond his authority and the carry was legit.

It would be exactly the same if someone asked you to leave Starbucks, Home Depot or Wal-Mart...I don't care who it is, the corporate policy overrules all of the underlings.

Personally, I would have left the merchandise there, probably would have given it to the manager...along with a notice that I would be talking to his boss in the morning and I would expect a PUBLIC apoligy before I would spend one more cent in any Safeway.

deanf · Sep 14, 2012

It is well known that this persons employer (Safeway) says that their stores will follow whatever the state law is...therefore, the manager was going beyond his authority and the carry was legit.

The police and the courts will not care about the private administrative rules of Safeway. The private administrative rules of Safeway that establish the authority of different levels of management are none of our business.

Assuming one takes the low road and ignores the directions of a store employee completely, do you think the cops who show up will care at all what Safeway's corporate policy is or the nature of the private administrative relationship between Safeway and it's employee?

Complaining about a store employee is fine, but you still have to follow their directions or leave. It's really very simple.

deanf · Sep 14, 2012

It would be exactly the same if someone asked you to leave Starbucks, Home Depot or Wal-Mart...I don't care who it is, the corporate policy overrules all of the underlings.

If you were to tell that to the police or a court, what reaction would you expect to get?

This ground has been covered at OCDO-WA many times. Attorneys at law and police officers have weighed in - people who have actuall experience in this specific area. They agree with me.

sudden valley gunner · Sep 15, 2012

deanf said:
If you were to tell that to the police or a court, what reaction would you expect to get?

This ground has been covered at OCDO-WA many times. Attorneys at law and police officers have weighed in - people who have actuall experience in this specific area. They agree with me.[/COLOR]

Yep if you are asked to leave or not do something you comply or risk being trespassed/arrested.

Calmly leave, call corporate or a manager and clear up the manner. I have done it a few times works well.

hermannr · Sep 15, 2012

Where did I say I would not leave? I said I would leave, and I would also leave the merchandise, and I would make sure that the person's employer was informed that they had exceeded their authority....re-read my post.

gogodawgs · Sep 15, 2012

hermannr said:
I do believe you are mostly wrong here. It is well known that this persons employer (Safeway) says that their stores will follow whatever the state law is...therefore, the manager was going beyond his authority and the carry was legit. No the manager is not going beyond his/her authority.

It would be exactly the same if someone asked you to leave Starbucks, Home Depot or Wal-Mart...I don't care who it is, the corporate policy overrules all of the underlings. No it does not.

Personally, I would have left the merchandise there, probably would have given it to the manager...along with a notice that I would be talking to his boss in the morning and I would expect a PUBLIC apoligy before I would spend one more cent in any Safeway.

Certainly the corporate policy is legit, but the manager may over rule that if conditions warrant such a decision. While a holstered handgun should not warrant an over rule, it may at that time be a decision by that manager. More experienced managers will know to leave it alone. However, there may be circumstances surrounding the behavior or appearance that may warrant a different decision.

My first encounter - East Wenatchee Safeway

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