Landlords restricting firearms and weapons in apartments.

LkWd_Don · Sep 16, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
hermannr said:

however...
you seem to have missed, those that accept public housing money do not get to be so choosy as to who the reject as renters.

Click to expand...

You are correct... there are a lot less options (as there should be) if public funds are involved. But if I am not receiving public funds, it is still MY property and MY rules until we agree to the terms of the lease, until such time as a state law is passed which prohibits landlords from banning firearms... which I honestly have mixed feelings about. I hate the idea of the government telling me what I can or cannot do with MY property.

As a private property owner opting to be a landlord and renting out your own personal property, accepting public funding in the form of rent subsidies holds requirements that you abide by the law and not discriminate. It does not however imply that you have to accept anyone who happens to have or qualify for public rent subsidy funding. Oh, I know how those that operate the Housing Authorities will try to convince you that you have to do so, (that is so that they can hopefully bully you into keeping your door open to whomever they want to put in your home) but the truth is as long as they can not prove that you are discriminating against race, religion, national origin.. etc.. and as long as you keep your property well maintained, as a private property owner willing to accept HUD subsidies-- you are pretty much able to establish any rules you wish to trouble yourself to enforce. If the tenant does not wish to accept, then they do not have to sign the contract.

Even if you are the owner or manager of an apartment complex that publicly advertises that you accept those subsidies, you are a bit more limited but still do not have to accept or rent to just anyone.

Grim_Night · Sep 16, 2012

One thing I thought about and I think it may be a valid issue... Where I live, they do weekly "health and safety" inspections... they check the smoke detector, check to see if the place is clean and there aren't any safety hazards... They also say they can search your apartment at any time day or night to see if you are following the rules. We had a neighbor that was letting some people stay in her apartment while she was away... The people from Greater Lakes came by after getting reports about this, opened up the apartment and walked right on in and sure enough, there were 2 people not on the lease sleeping in the apartment with the actual tenant nowhere to be found... She was soon evicted. My issue is, if somebody in my apartment complex were to see that I had a gun off property, report that I had a gun, would they have a right to search my apartment for a gun if I was there or not? Wouldn't that be considered an illegal search which is made even worse by the fact that it was done without law enforcement?

deanf · Sep 16, 2012

Wouldn't that be considered an illegal search which is made even worse by the fact that it was done without law enforcement?

Please post a copy of the lease agreement. There's really no way to approach these questions without it.

BigDave · Sep 16, 2012

Grim_Night said:
One thing I thought about and I think it may be a valid issue... Where I live, they do weekly "health and safety" inspections... they check the smoke detector, check to see if the place is clean and there aren't any safety hazards... They also say they can search your apartment at any time day or night to see if you are following the rules. We had a neighbor that was letting some people stay in her apartment while she was away... The people from Greater Lakes came by after getting reports about this, opened up the apartment and walked right on in and sure enough, there were 2 people not on the lease sleeping in the apartment with the actual tenant nowhere to be found... She was soon evicted. My issue is, if somebody in my apartment complex were to see that I had a gun off property, report that I had a gun, would they have a right to search my apartment for a gun if I was there or not? Wouldn't that be considered an illegal search which is made even worse by the fact that it was done without law enforcement?

This sounds more to the liking of a Half Way House? There are many issues here and I would encourage getting into a position of finding a new place to live and leave all these troubles behind.

Grim_Night · Sep 16, 2012

Well the thing is... since my housing is funded by HUD, they do in fact require that the residence be inspected at least once a year... I believe that Greater Lakes is just taking it to 52 times a year...

LkWd_Don · Sep 17, 2012

NavyLCDR said:
This is truly a historic day. I completely agree with BigDave.

+ 2 From me, as I agree as well.

Yes the Landlord/Tenant Law does allow the Landlord to conduct "announced" inspections (with 2 days notice) and to enter without prior notification in the event of an emergency.
However, to just walk in unannounced to perform an inspection without an existing emergency is against the law without a court order.

Please read: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=59.18.150

(1) The tenant shall not unreasonably withhold consent to the landlord to enter into the dwelling unit in order to inspect the premises, ~~ snipped ~~

(5) The landlord may enter the dwelling unit without consent of the tenant in case of emergency or abandonment.

(6) The landlord shall not abuse the right of access or use it to harass the tenant, and shall provide notice before entry as provided in this subsection. Except in the case of emergency or if it is impracticable to do so, the landlord shall give the tenant at least two days' written notice of his or her intent to enter and shall enter only at reasonable times. The notice must state the exact time and date or dates of entry or specify a period of time during that date or dates in which the entry will occur, in which case the notice must specify the earliest and latest possible times of entry. The notice must also specify the telephone number to which the tenant may communicate any objection or request to reschedule the entry. The tenant shall not unreasonably withhold consent to the landlord to enter the dwelling unit at a specified time where the landlord has given at least one day's notice of intent to enter to exhibit the dwelling unit to prospective or actual purchasers or tenants. A landlord shall not unreasonably interfere with a tenant's enjoyment of the rented dwelling unit by excessively exhibiting the dwelling unit.

(7) The landlord has no other right of access except by court order, arbitrator or by consent of the tenant.

Putting the Landlord/Tenant Law aside, something is not adding up here as GLMH should have no such involvement in your living quarters if you are not under ordered care.

Grim_Night · Sep 17, 2012

Ok so I think I found something that makes my case oh so strong reguarding possessing a gun in my apartment...

LINK 1

Greater Lakes Mental Healthcare in Lakewood, WA: A private or public agency usually under local government jurisdiction, responsible for assuring the delivery of community based mental health, mental retardation, substance abuse and/or behavioral health services to individuals with those disabilities.
Services may range from companion care, respite, transportation, community integration, crisis intervention and stabilization, supported employment, day support, prevocational services, residential support, therapeutic and supportive consultation, environmental modifications, intensive in-home therapy and day treatment, in addition to traditional mental health and behavioral treatment.

LINK 2 Read page 37, "1. State Law Preemption"

In jurisdictions where PHAs are treated like municipal subdivision, they may be unequivocally preempted from imposing gun controls on public housing residents.

A PHA is a Public Housing Authority which in turn is anybody that gets money from HUD to use with reguards to subsidised housing. So if Greater Lakes is considered under the government's jurisdiction, then they are preempted from making any rules and regulations reguarding firearms that are more restricting then the rules and regulations in Washington state law... Am I mistaken?

slapmonkay · Sep 17, 2012

Still waiting for a copy of the lease...

Grim_Night · Sep 17, 2012

slapmonkay said:
Still waiting for a copy of the lease...

Would you like to provide me the use of a scanner so I can make a digital copy with which to share? Sorry, I thought not. I have already reviewed my lease and I can tell you definitively that there is nothing in my lease that says I cannot have weapons or firearms. And as I already stated above, there is in fact a provision in my lease that covers "personal protection" "personal security" and "protection of myself and my property".

And more to the fact, I have only a hard copy of my lease with MDC. I have nothing in writing from Greater Lakes. My issue isn't with MDC anyway, it is entirely with Greater Lakes.

LkWd_Don · Sep 18, 2012

Grim_Night said:
Ok so I think I found something that makes my case oh so strong reguarding possessing a gun in my apartment...

LINK 1

LINK 2 Read page 37, "1. State Law Preemption"

A PHA is a Public Housing Authority which in turn is anybody that gets money from HUD to use with reguards to subsidised housing. So if Greater Lakes is considered under the government's jurisdiction, then they are preempted from making any rules and regulations reguarding firearms that are more restricting then the rules and regulations in Washington state law... Am I mistaken?

As you said above, GLMH is not the PHA.

The Metropolitan Development Council (MDC) is a private organization acting as a PHA.

With what you quoted about PHA's not being able to preempt the State, since the state reserves preemption in regards to firearms, the MDC can not restrict you.

Next question is, do you have or can you legally get a CPL?

If so and it were me in that boat.. I would be telling GLMH that continually harassing me in that way might get them sued, then I would be looking for a good 2A rights lawyer.

Grim_Night · Sep 18, 2012

LkWd_Don said:
As you said above, GLMH is not the PHA.

The Metropolitan Development Council (MDC) is a private organization acting as a PHA.

With what you quoted about PHA's not being able to preempt the State, since the state reserves preemption in regards to firearms, the MDC can not restrict you.

Next question is, do you have or can you legally get a CPL?

If so and it were me in that boat.. I would be telling GLMH that continually harassing me in that way might get them sued, then I would be looking for a good 2A rights lawyer.

#1 I've already applied for my CPL and I'm fairly sure I will be approved for it. I passed my background check for my handgun purchase within 3 days of filling the paperwork. The only issue with the CPL is that they tend to drag their feet in pierce county reguarding the CPL.

#2 As far as MDC being a PHA, that's probably true, but Greater Lakes is acting as a PHA as well since they are the ones recieving federal and state funds to be used for the purposes of providing subsidized housing and they are also under the jurisdiction of at least the state government. They are a non-profit community mental health facility that recieves state funds from medicaid as well as federal funds from HUD for their housing program.

DCKilla · Sep 18, 2012

Grim_Night said:
#1 I've already applied for my CPL and I'm fairly sure I will be approved for it. I passed my background check for my handgun purchase within 3 days of filling the paperwork. The only issue with the CPL is that they tend to drag their feet in pierce county reguarding the CPL.

It took about 15 days in pierce county for me. When did you apply?

Grim_Night · Sep 18, 2012

DCKilla said:
It took about 15 days in pierce county for me. When did you apply?

September 10th

DamonK · Sep 18, 2012

Grim_Night said:
September 10th

It took me a full 30 days with thurston. Don't worry about it till the 10th comes around.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

Grim_Night · Sep 18, 2012

So I talked to MDC and they said that because I am no longer a client of greater lakes, I am not eligible to be moved from this property without going through the whole process of their application and waiting list to get into a new place. I'm told that MDC doesn't allow weapons in their apartments which is interesting considering that there is nothing at all in the lease reguarding weapons. A guy I talked to today said that yes, I am legal to use non weapon items such as a frying pan or whatever to defend myself in my home, to which I asked him "what if somebody breaks in and has a gun? Am I suppose to protect myself with a frying pan against a man with a gun?" He didn't quite answer that one...

I'm trying to talk to the person who is head of the housing department at Greater Lakes but she is not returning my calls. At this point, I'm getting the idea that nobody wants to officially deal with this issue and if I want something done, I have to take legal action... which I can't afford. The problem is that the only reason I'm in my current apartment is because I was homeless at the time that I moved in and I had no other options. I basically had a "take it or leave it" situation. While anybody else looking for a place to rent and confronted with the terms of the lease is free to negotiate the terms or find someplace else that was in their price range willing to work with them. I have no other options and they know that. They know that if they kick me out, I have no other place to go.

I'm trying to make a couple different points reguarding the firearms issue to the people in control by trying to attack it from multiple different angles. If in fact where I live is under the jurisdiction of the state government then state preemtion is in effect and they cannot make or enforce rules that are more strict then state law reguarding firearms. Another angle would be that forbidding firearms is unconstitutional and imposing unreasonable terms and conditions and that I cannot give up my constitutional right to have and bear arms in order to recieve public benefits.

To make this simple, the easiest way to go about this is to in fact get a lawyer reguarding civil rights, landlord tenent laws and 2nd amendment advocacy. Which is a catch 22 situation because I can't afford a lawyer...

Below is a PDF file reguarding 2A and public housing authorities and the legal ramifications...

BigDave · Sep 18, 2012

Grimm, I would suggest stop asking for permission and discussing the issue with anyone of these groups that may or may not listen or give you sound advice. From your post thus far, you are getting opinions from what they want not what the law says, You have cited where you are legal so by all means take responsibility for your safety.

Caution, what concerns me if you continue trying to take this stance you will likely be faced with an eviction, legally or not, are you prepared to move? find another home with out assistance? will it put you back on the streets? If not then go underground for now as your well being and safety is priority here.
Conceal (conceal or open carry is just a mode of carry) and protect yourself if the need arises as the law will still be on your side and as with anything, nothing is free there is always a price to pay.

Pick your battles wisely, when you are prepared financially and the threat of losing your home does not hang in the balance of ignorant people wanting to impose their views and not the law.

massivedesign · Sep 18, 2012

Either Dave's on new meds or my views in life have shifted because over the last few weeks I have found myself agreeing with him more and more. Solid advice. If it's not in the lease, the rule doesn't exist / is non-enforceable. Leave it be. You don't want to be poking a stick into a hornets nest.

BigDave · Sep 18, 2012

massivedesign said:
Either Dave's on new meds or my views in life have shifted because over the last few weeks I have found myself agreeing with him more and more. Solid advice. If it's not in the lease, the rule doesn't exist / is non-enforceable. Leave it be. You don't want to be poking a stick into a hornets nest.

Maybe you are just getting use to me! :lol:

tombrewster421 · Sep 18, 2012

massivedesign said:
Either Dave's on new meds or my views in life have shifted because over the last few weeks I have found myself agreeing with him more and more. Solid advice. If it's not in the lease, the rule doesn't exist / is non-enforceable. Leave it be. You don't want to be poking a stick into a hornets nest.

+1 on all accounts

Grim_Night · Sep 18, 2012

Ok so I got some information from Greater Lakes today after my call to MDC. From what I can tell so far, this "no weapons" rule seems to fall into the situation of the average person not knowing any better and willing to abide by the rule. While the educated person looks at the rule and right away knows that the rule is unenforcable, illegal, unconstitutional, etc... So the people that make the rule are counting on the fact that most people don't know that the rule is just a bluff and when confronted by somebody that can in fact prove that it is a bluff, they back down.

I say all this because the call I put into MDC tday, I discussed the lawfulness of the "no weapons" rule and the contradiction between it, state law and my lease. I was able to back up my view with established laws, quotes from my lease and a fairly in depth analysis of the role of 2A in PHAs (the PDF file I attached to my last post). It seems that the fact that I called the person at greater lakes in charge of the housing program, coupled with the fact that I talked to somebody at MDC who is directly attached to their housing department had an effect. The guy I talked to at MDC called the person at GLMH and that person in turn told the people that came out to do the inspections today not to bother me (they didn't even knock on my door or do their weekly inspection of my apartment lol). I had to approch them to find out why they were ignoring my apartment and I was told that the lady from GLMH had heard from the guy at MDC and she would be contacting me in the next day or so reguarding the situation.

What I suspect is going to happen is I will be told that I'm right, I'm free to do what I want to do as long as it's within the law and I don't cause a problem at the property of which I live. At least I hope this is the case. I do know that they have no grounds with which to even start an eviction process as I have followed my lease to the letter up to this point so I'm fairly safe. And if they do wish to make this difficult on me, I have already been in contact with the Second Amendment Foundation in Bellevue and the person there put me in contact with a pro 2A lawyer.

Landlords restricting firearms and weapons in apartments.

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