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Washington State Trooper at the fair supports 2nd amendment

Fuller Malarkey

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~SNIP~
it seems to me you're really just opposed to public order and want a society in which you can do anything you want with no consequence. to you the law's only useful if it directly benefits you by getting you off the hook for any suspicious behavior you're up to.

Speaking of fallacies....the above in red falls under the heading of the false dichotomy, or, the appeal to extremes. Either we tolerate what we have, or we'll have anarchy in the streets. If you appose the status quo, you want chaos and social collapse.

I contend there is a middle ground, where we as citizens, entitled to our rights through the social contract of citizenship, are entitled to our privacy and rights to travel unimpeded. A middle ground where we don't need to work out methods of immediate, unquestioning servile submission that might help in keeping our money from being taken from us, might help in not becoming a corpse or beating victim, might help survive an encounter with police.

I'm not of the opinion that in order to invoke this middle ground expectation that much change, if any, needs to happen on the part of the citizen.
 

Trigger Dr

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it seems to me you're really just opposed to public order and want a society in which you can do anything you want with no consequence


If everybody behaved liked me then no consequences would be needed ... public order would be instantly established ... (and I can do anything I want w/o consequence fyi)

Keep the faith !

WOW... The second coming has arrived and we missed it???????
 

OC for ME

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My job also doesn't come with the implication I'm responsible for the safety of the public at large, logical fallacy, false comparison
Warren v. District of Columbia, DeShaney v. Winnebago County, Castle Rock v. Gonzales: It may be implied that cops should but it is not a legal burden that they must. Each cop must decide his level of commitment to the should part because there certainly is no must part.

Again logically fallacious, false comparison. but a private property owner can demand your ID and then kick you off the property if you refuse.
True. But, try to demand the ID of the cop when he enters upon your property, invited or otherwise, for the purposes of checking him out and see what happens. Active duty cops can have criminal records too.

Not sure how prevalent this is but I do know that rights abusing cops have been successfully sued and retained their current lob or are forced to move onto other departments. Getting fired for simply being a rights abusing cop is rare indeed.

Not correct, cops are given powers to arrest with no warrant, to carry a firearm into restricted areas, to detain people for investigation of criminal activity, etc etc etc plus liability shields and a general duty to maintain public order. again logically fallacious false comparison.
Unless the cop has RAS or PC his state provided authority is not available to use/exert. If he ain't got RAS or PC there is no difference between me and that state employee in the eyes of the law. I can charge him (report/file a complaint) with criminal trespass. I can charge him with any crime if he is breaking the criminal code and I happen to witness his criminality. Even better if I have video/audio. Happens all the time for on-duty and off-duty behavior.

it seems to me you're really just opposed to public order and want a society in which you can do anything you want with no consequence. to you the law's only useful if it directly benefits you by getting you off the hook for any suspicious behavior you're up to.
I have no idea what you are try to state. Is it no laws or is it laws?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Warren v. District of Columbia, DeShaney v. Winnebago County, Castle Rock v. Gonzales: It may be implied that cops should but it is not a legal burden that they must. Each cop must decide his level of commitment to the should part because there certainly is no must part.

Those rulings established that there is no entitlement to individual protection from criminal activity by the police. And Gonzales ruled that there was no property interest in having a restraining order enforced. there is nothing that says police have zero obligation for public safety. In fact in Washington statutory law in this state (RCW 9A.80.010) which makes it a crime to fail to discharge duties required by law, and RCW 36.28.010 requires county sheriff's to arrest all persons who breach the peace or commit public offenses. So there is in fact an obligation to public safety spelled out in law, at least in this state.

True. But, try to demand the ID of the cop when he enters upon your property, invited or otherwise, for the purposes of checking him out and see what happens. Active duty cops can have criminal records too.

But not felony records, felony applicants cannot be hired, and any police officer who is convicted of a felony must be decertified (RCW 43.101.105)
Yes you can refuse to allow police officers on your property, they may however enter with a warrant or in some cases, probable cause. If they are entering your property outside of official duties then they may be arrested the same as any citizen

Not sure how prevalent this is but I do know that rights abusing cops have been successfully sued and retained their current lob or are forced to move onto other departments. Getting fired for simply being a rights abusing cop is rare indeed.

Not true at all, I can think of at least three cases off the top of my head in which officers have been fired for abusing people's rights.
Officer Harless of Canton Ohio was fired for threatening to kill a lawfully armed citizen for not informing his he was armed fast enough, Sergeant Kuhlein of St George Missouri was fired for threatening to fabricate charges against a college student who asked him why he was being stopped (the college kid was in a parked car at a park and ride lot that's open 24 hours)
An Ohio police chief was fired for beating a man already in custody, bad cops get fired all the time. of course if you want firings for every single "questionable" stop made there'd be no one qualified to do police work.

Unless the cop has RAS or PC his state provided authority is not available to use/exert. If he ain't got RAS or PC there is no difference between me and that state employee in the eyes of the law. I can charge him (report/file a complaint) with criminal trespass. I can charge him with any crime if he is breaking the criminal code and I happen to witness his criminality. Even better if I have video/audio. Happens all the time for on-duty and off-duty behavior.

Maybe in your state you can, I mean I can file a criminal complaint against anyone I want, but if the Prosecuting Attorney won't take it then you're dead in the water. PA's nearly always take police inititatiated cases, they rarely waste their time with civilian complaints unless the matter is serious.

I have no idea what you are try to state. Is it no laws or is it laws?

I'm saying my general frustration with people like David McBeth is that they consider every single time an officer stops someone without what THEY would consider RAS is a firable offense, Or they compare to a felony criminal code offense which it's not.

Mr. Mcbeth stated earlier on the column that a group of guardsmen who told their CO we will not confiscate guns weren't doing enough, and then implied that they should've opened fire on the Louisiana guardsmen counterparts who did. As if the first thing Louisiana needed was the authorities engaged in firefights with each other and ignoring the gangs roaming the streets.

I don't want a society with laws as interpreted by david mcbeth
 

OC for ME

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Those rulings established that there is no entitlement to individual protection from criminal activity by the police. And Gonzales ruled that there was no property interest in having a restraining order enforced. there is nothing that says police have zero obligation for public safety. In fact in Washington statutory law in this state (RCW 9A.80.010) which makes it a crime to fail to discharge duties required by law, and RCW 36.28.010 requires county sheriff's to arrest all persons who breach the peace or commit public offenses. So there is in fact an obligation to public safety spelled out in law, at least in this state.
RCW 9A.80.010 makes it a crime to intentionally do something criminal, or to intentionally not do something when you are required by law to do something. What I can't find is a law that explicitly states that a cop is required by law to prevent a crime, even if that cop witnesses the crime in progress. There are all sorts of laws that gives the cop the authority to do something, but I have not yet found a law that states that he must do something with that authority right then and there. But, to be honest I'm not looking all that hard. The vast majority of cops work very hard to do the best they can every day and comply with the law and uphold their oath. But the point remains valid.

But not felony records, felony applicants cannot be hired, and any police officer who is convicted of a felony must be decertified (RCW 43.101.105)
Not true, there is an exception 1(c), it's in there.....funny, it's quite possible that you could be bust for a misdemeanor by a convicted felon.....:uhoh:

Yes you can refuse to allow police officers on your property, they may however enter with a warrant or in some cases, probable cause. If they are entering your property outside of official duties then they may be arrested the same as any citizen.
The reason for their entry onto my property is irrelevant. The property owner should/may have every right to demand their ID and "check them out", especially if they enter upon my property without permission or lawful authority.

Not true at all, I can think of at least three cases off the top of my head in which officers have been fired for abusing people's rights.
Officer Harless of Canton Ohio was fired for threatening to kill a lawfully armed citizen for not informing his he was armed fast enough, Sergeant Kuhlein of St George Missouri was fired for threatening to fabricate charges against a college student who asked him why he was being stopped (the college kid was in a parked car at a park and ride lot that's open 24 hours)
An Ohio police chief was fired for beating a man already in custody, bad cops get fired all the time. of course if you want firings for every single "questionable" stop made there'd be no one qualified to do police work.
Harless was not fired because he abused a citizen's rights, he was cleared of any wrong doing on that account. He was fired because the public backlash from his death threats caught on dash-cam tape, on several different occasions, made him unemployable by the city due to looming litigation if the city did not act. What you may find of some interest is that his partner seems to have retained his job simply because he was not the "articulate one" of the two during those incidents.

It seems that Sgt. Kuhlein was hired by Velda City PD until he was charged in November 2011 with a felony crimes. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_4fa372cc-0a81-11e1-b0a6-001a4bcf6878.html

Cops "breaking the law" is far different that cops violating your rights and getting off without so much as a sticky note attached to their service record. And, I suspect, that you know this to be true in every LEA anywhere. It is the very rare exception that a cop get fired for violating a citizen's rights. The Madison 5, skidmark, MKEgal are just a few of those who have been unlawful subjected to the legal system and those thug cops have retained their jobs. I'll bet some of those thug cops have "earned" promotions since their thuggery was repudiated.

Maybe in your state you can, I mean I can file a criminal complaint against anyone I want, but if the Prosecuting Attorney won't take it then you're dead in the water. PA's nearly always take police initiated cases, they rarely waste their time with civilian complaints unless the matter is serious.
You just cited RCW 9A.80.010. So, which is it? Cops can or can not be charged for official misconduct? However, you are correct, the odds of a cop being charged with a gross misdemeanor under RCW 9A.80.010 are virtually nil.

I'm saying my general frustration with people like David McBeth is that they consider every single time an officer stops someone without what THEY would consider RAS is a firable offense, Or they compare to a felony criminal code offense which it's not.
I agree.....but it sure would be nice if cops did not, ever, stop you unless they did have RAS. At least we all would know that the stop was lawful going into the stop. Anyone who supports the concept of "consensual contact" is anti-liberty, anti-citizen in my view.

Mr. Mcbeth stated earlier on the column that a group of guardsmen who told their CO we will not confiscate guns weren't doing enough, and then implied that they should've opened fire on the Louisiana guardsmen counterparts who did. As if the first thing Louisiana needed was the authorities engaged in firefights with each other and ignoring the gangs roaming the streets.
It's his opinion.....not mine. By the way, there were many "uniformed gangs" roaming the streets too, as we now know lo these many years later. I am extremely disappointed that NOPD was placed under federal control after those egregious acts and that the vast majority of those cops remain NOPD officers to this day.

I don't want a society with laws as interpreted by david mcbeth[/QUOTE]I do not want a society with laws as interpreted by cops.
 

sudden valley gunner

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That's what he SAYS, not what he does. ;)

Almost all the State troopers I have had encounters with while OC'ing have been very supportive, and have a better grasp of our state laws. They have also been professional and courteous and I have experienced them using more "discretion" on their part in favor of civilians over the state.

This doesn't mean I am a fan of unconstitutional proactive policing.
 
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OC for ME

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Correction, Harless was not cleared, the DA could not apply state law(s) to his specific actions as the laws are currently written in Ohio. If I recall correctly that is. He could not be charged even if they wanted to. How messed up is that? Now, what if I pulled a Harless, on more than one occasion? I'd likely not get a second occasion to be honest, yet cops get endless occasions to violate our rights with little to no repercussions. Happens every day.
 

sudden valley gunner

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My job also doesn't come with the implication I'm responsible for the safety of the public at large, logical fallacy, false comparison


Again logically fallacious, false comparison. but a private property owner can demand your ID and then kick you off the property if you refuse.



Not correct, cops are given powers to arrest with no warrant, to carry a firearm into restricted areas, to detain people for investigation of criminal activity, etc etc etc plus liability shields and a general duty to maintain public order. again logically fallacious false comparison.

it seems to me you're really just opposed to public order and want a society in which you can do anything you want with no consequence. to you the law's only useful if it directly benefits you by getting you off the hook for any suspicious behavior you're up to.

Just vomited in my mouth, disgusting!

Who are you to judge what is "suspicious", please cite where anybody has stated they want to do anything they want with no consequence?

Wow so you want to get rid of our founding smugglers I mean fathers, protection against government because the government and others may feel its "suspicious".

Who are you to determine what "order" is, it is freedom and the lack of state order that creates and innovates a more natural civilized order by the public the benefits the public more.
 

davidmcbeth

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Almost all the State troopers I have had encounters with while OC'ing have been very supportive, and have a better grasp of our state laws. They have also been professional and courteous and I have experienced them using more "disretion" on their part in favor of civilians over the state.

This doesn't mean I am a fan of unconstitutional proactive policing.

I have NEVER met a policeman who does not say he does not support the 2nd amendment or any other amendment for that matter. On the streets, its a different story ... but if I could disarm someone just by asking I would disarm every policeman I encounter ;).

Even Obamalama says he supports the 2nd amendment ... go figure.

See, there are different levels of "support".... calling us that strongly support the second amendment anarchists does not make it so...though the FBI would have you brainwashed into thinking otherwise.
 

EMNofSeattle

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RCW 9A.80.010 makes it a crime to intentionally do something criminal, or to intentionally not do something when you are required by law to do something. What I can't find is a law that explicitly states that a cop is required by law to prevent a crime, even if that cop witnesses the crime in progress. There are all sorts of laws that gives the cop the authority to do something, but I have not yet found a law that states that he must do something with that authority right then and there. But, to be honest I'm not looking all that hard. The vast majority of cops work very hard to do the best they can every day and comply with the law and uphold their oath. But the point remains valid.

I'll give you that one

Not true, there is an exception 1(c), it's in there.....funny, it's quite possible that you could be bust for a misdemeanor by a convicted felon.....:uhoh:

I promise you that no department around where I live will hire a convicted felon. Maybe if the felon in question had their judgement reversed becuase it was discovered they were wrongfully convicted you could get hired. but I am yet to see a guilty convicted felon as a cop


It seems that Sgt. Kuhlein was hired by Velda City PD until he was charged in November 2011 with a felony crimes. http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_4fa372cc-0a81-11e1-b0a6-001a4bcf6878.html

Didn't know that, I'll give you that one, hiring someone who threatened to commit perjury on tape is a dumb idea.

Cops "breaking the law" is far different that cops violating your rights and getting off without so much as a sticky note attached to their service record. And, I suspect, that you know this to be true in every LEA anywhere. It is the very rare exception that a cop get fired for violating a citizen's rights. The Madison 5, skidmark, MKEgal are just a few of those who have been unlawful subjected to the legal system and those thug cops have retained their jobs. I'll bet some of those thug cops have "earned" promotions since their thuggery was repudiated.

I'm only familiar with MKEgal's experience, And I would agree that cop was most certainly in the wrong. I don't know that nature of that officers service record or previous misdeeds or good deeds so I will not pass judgement saying he should be fired however. Skid's experience I have no idea about.

You just cited RCW 9A.80.010. So, which is it? Cops can or can not be charged for official misconduct? However, you are correct, the odds of a cop being charged with a gross misdemeanor under RCW 9A.80.010 are virtually nil.

Again I'll agree with that one there

I agree.....but it sure would be nice if cops did not, ever, stop you unless they did have RAS. At least we all would know that the stop was lawful going into the stop. Anyone who supports the concept of "consensual contact" is anti-liberty, anti-citizen in my view.

How is it against your liberty to consent to a police encounter? your liberty is only infringed if you are compelled without lawful authority, part of freedom is being able to waive your own rights, you can't force someone to use a right.
RAS is not a high legal standard to meet, There's been cases before in which simply having a vehichle registered outside of the county was considered RAS. RAS is not even really for the officer to decide, the judge decides if the officer's suspicion was reasonable, I watch court proceedings freqently and have studied some case law, I've seen cases in which a detention was ruled unlawful by one judge, and a case similar was ruled lawful by a different judge. the reasonable suspicion is only adjudiacted once a judge takes a look at it. The officer does not have the legal authority to adjudicate any action he takes as probable cause or reasonable suspicion. should officers abstain from commiting acts that are clearly illegal? you bet! but most cases are not clearly legal or illegal.


It's his opinion.....not mine. By the way, there were many "uniformed gangs" roaming the streets too, as we now know lo these many years later. I am extremely disappointed that NOPD was placed under federal control after those egregious acts and that the vast majority of those cops remain NOPD officers to this day.

I seem to recall the NOPD officers who killed those folks at that bridge were convicted of felonies and put away for a long time. That's how it should've gone down for them too.

Confiscation of firearms was limited to New Orleans proper, There was no confiscation that happened anywhere else, that I know of, Utah National Guardsmen pre-emptively told their CO they would not confiscate guns, the CO was surprised, why? BECAUSE HE KNEW NOTHING OF ANY ORDERS TO CONFISCATE GUNS these LA guardsmen and NO police officers were acting on illegal orders from Eddie Compass the NO police commisioner and not under orders from their military chain of command, at least that I know of. Both the state and federal legislatures immediately passed laws that stated in no uncertain terms that confiscation is illegal, virtually every state "emergency powers law" that has been challenged has been ruled against in court, or repealed. and federal courts consistently ruled against NO's illegal actions. I would love to see the esteemed mr Compass behind bars, but I can't complain about the swift reaction and universal condemnation that the city recieved.

There were also plenty of LE personnel who acted in the service of their citizens as well, Sheriff Billy McGee and his deputies raided a guard compound and comandeered supply trucks after the feds failed to deliver promised supplies for instance
 

sudden valley gunner

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I have NEVER met a policeman who does not say he does not support the 2nd amendment or any other amendment for that matter. On the streets, its a different story ... but if I could disarm someone just by asking I would disarm every policeman I encounter ;).

Even Obamalama says he supports the 2nd amendment ... go figure.

See, there are different levels of "support".... calling us that strongly support the second amendment anarchists does not make it so...though the FBI would have you brainwashed into thinking otherwise.

LOL...don't I know that and I agree with this 100%.

Personally through my experiences I have found the troopers to be more supportive of rights and the law, even when their personal feelings are different.

When some hoplophobes cried to the Troopers about our members being armed in our state legislative chambers and how they were afraid , their response to them was basically "So?". They didn't even approach or say anything to our members and about it dismissing their complaints.
 

OC for ME

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I promise you that no department around where I live will hire a convicted felon. Maybe if the felon in question had their judgement reversed because it was discovered they were wrongfully convicted you could get hired. but I am yet to see a guilty convicted felon as a cop.
Any Chief who uses this exception to hire a convicted felon regardless of his justification should not be a chief, let alone a cop. Yet, the law permits it.

How is it against your liberty to consent to a police encounter? your liberty is only infringed if you are compelled without lawful authority, part of freedom is being able to waive your own rights, you can't force someone to use a right. <snip>
I'll state it again, I never consent to a stop by police. They must detain me if they think they have RAS. Subsequently I comply only as the law directs. A great many folks subscribe to the "I am compelled by law to respond to the cop" mindset.....I do notsubscribe to that mindset.

I seem to recall the NOPD officers who killed those folks at that bridge were convicted of felonies and put away for a long time. That's how it should've gone down for them too. <snip>
The actual shooters/those cops there. How many other NOPD cops knew they did it that remain employed by NOPD? We can never know. how many othe crimes were committed yet those cops remain with NOPD?
 

EMNofSeattle

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Any Chief who uses this exception to hire a convicted felon regardless of his justification should not be a chief, let alone a cop. Yet, the law permits it.

So what if an individual is convicted based on testimony that is perjured, and fabricated evidence by a crooked cop/prosecuter, and lets say a few years later the conspiracy is discovered the perjurers are proven guilty and the "felon" has his convictions vacated and expunged, should he be inelligible for police work period? I don't think so. i think a pardon or vacation or reversal of conviction should remove all legal disabilities.

I'll state it again, I never consent to a stop by police. They must detain me if they think they have RAS. Subsequently I comply only as the law directs. A great many folks subscribe to the "I am compelled by law to respond to the cop" mindset.....I do notsubscribe to that mindset.

Well I see it as, I will definitely exercise my rights, and i don't feel guilty about it. but those great many folks, it's their problem if they consent. I don't even try to convince others to use their rights, several friends of mine say "well it's illegal not to talk to a cop" or "it's illegal to refuse a search" then you inform them it isn't, provide cites and everything, and they say "but it's a good idea to consent" these people are not able to comprehend, and I don't even waste my time on them anymore.


The actual shooters/those cops there. How many other NOPD cops knew they did it that remain employed by NOPD? We can never know. how many othe crimes were committed yet those cops remain with NOPD?

Well I don't want a "minority report" type society, so if you can prove those officers knew about it, yes I want them convicted (if there was already an existing statute they can be convicted under, since ex post facto laws are unconstitutional) and put away. but on pure speculation? I'm not willing to launch witch hunts based on that. I'm big on needing evidence to jack people up....
 

davidmcbeth

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I was told by a cop to stop several days ago ... I turned around and walked away ... cop did not chase me or stop me...he had no RAS clearly.
 

davidmcbeth

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Pictures or it did not happen....WHAT??? NO PICTURES?????

I am involved in a case with the PD dept and have filed a motion in a judicial proceeding regarding the incident ; sorry, I did not stick around a loony cop to take pics ... maybe next time you can come with me as a documentation specialist ...
 

Trigger Dr

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I am involved in a case with the PD dept and have filed a motion in a judicial proceeding regarding the incident ; sorry, I did not stick around a loony cop to take pics ... maybe next time you can come with me as a documentation specialist ...

Exactly what I expected. A reply that is total BS
 
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