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Thread: Lawful Resistance....

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Lawful Resistance....

    This thread is meant for responses of LAWFUL resistance.

    I have had numerous discussions with friends and other activists about resistance of unlawful detainment and arrest. Others here have discussed it in passing, and I am curious as to the thoughts and opinions of whoever cares to share.

    IMHO, in recent years, the police have turned the court system into their free pass for unlawful detainment and arrest of otherwise law abiding citizens. Generally, the citizen will eventually give in to the bullying tactics presented by officers who want nothing more than to push their personal agenda and fight the battle in court. I think this is getting out of hand. I have seen numerous videos and stories of this happening, and its an unfortunate waste of the "justice" system. The offending officers are generally not held responsible for their crimes, and walk away without punishment. While the offended citizens are left to foot the bill.

    I understand that some believe in passive resistance, while others believe that one should never resist.

    My beliefs are simple. It doesnt matter if you are a police officer, mayor, preacher, DEA, FBI, CIA, President, etc. If you assault, detain, arrest, or seize property unlawfully...You are a criminal. There is no badge, certification, quaification, or anything else that gives anyone the rights to violate mine.

    My question to all of you is would you resist an unlawful action taken against you by an officer? How far would you take it?

    I want everyone who reads this to know that I do not condone unlawful resistance. These questions are meant to bring discussion of resistance to a known unlawful action.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    The problem is, has been, and will likely always be that the municipalities can institute their own laws on such matters effectively making it a crime for you to not comply with an officer. Even some States have poorly worded laws on the matter, but RAS tends to come up nearly 100% of the time. Missouri already has such an issue in one city that will likely wind up going to court within the next year.

    Remember, if we resist they can throw an entire menu of charges at us....disorderly conduct and obstruction are just the tip of the iceberg. Sadly, that means when YOU, the citizen, go to court that the LEO is deemed a trustworthy expert. This is known as the win-win scenario for LE and several know just how to abuse it.

    If they charge you, your information on the matter is public record and that can be devastating to your employment and embarrasing for your family. It costs you money to get it to court to try to defend yourself against the issue and there's no guarantee that you'll win. So if you somehow get it tossed out it will then cost you even more money to have it all expunged. If you want to recover damages then you're forced to pay even more money to file the lawsuit for recovery.

    Even if the LEO knows it's a lost cause you, the citizen, still lose.
    This is exactly why LEOs should be treated like the average criminal when they violate the public trust and break the law. Rather than lower the standards under the guise of "in the line of duty" we need to hold them to a much higher standard.
    Last edited by REALteach4u; 09-18-2012 at 11:01 AM.

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    Regular Member Fuller Malarkey's Avatar
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    http://constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

    I keep this bookmarked.

    This issue weighs heavy on me. I'm not so much concerned about an interaction with myself and police, I'm worried about an impulsive reaction on my part to police abusing someone else. I don't think I could play witness to them beating another person to death again. Not when some intervention on my part might save them. I did that once. The guilt and shame eats me like cancer.
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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuller Malarkey View Post
    As do I.

    I am sorry that you had to witness such atrocity. But we learn from our mistakes. And situations as the one you described are happening to often to be ignored.

    As a citizen, I charge myself with an oath of upholding the Constitution. Which includes defending the rights of others against such situations. Thanks for the post.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REALteach4u View Post
    If they charge you, your information on the matter is public record and that can be devastating to your employment and embarrasing for your family. It costs you money to get it to court to try to defend yourself against the issue and there's no guarantee that you'll win. So if you somehow get it tossed out it will then cost you even more money to have it all expunged. If you want to recover damages then you're forced to pay even more money to file the lawsuit for recovery.
    I guess that could be an added question. What is it worth to you to defend liberty of yourself or others?

    I have seen the tables turned once or twice, and that gives me hope that the system can fix itself.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    I tattooed this on my winky winky ...

    No but really, I don't consent to searches for example...and at the airport I run into the commies full force.

    I just tell them do not violate my rights and I do not consent to a search that violates my rights and any physical touching that goes beyond that will be treated as a assault, battery, sexual assault, or whatever the circumstances warrant.. This gets them thinking ... and they don't get near my winky winky ...

    And its impossible for them to argue ... what they gonna say "you have to let us violate your rights" or "you gave up your rights" (I had one actually say this to me .... big mistake on her part as I started berating her right on the spot, using big boy words .. she ended up crying and needed to take a break ... score one against commie pinkos!) ... or "what do you mean" or "hey, I understand but I am just doing my job" ... "If you complain you'll go to jail"..heard them all....and yet not one has violated me. Go figure ... when one is in the right, the party in the wrong always backs down

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    Regular Member Motofixxer's Avatar
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    I read a story a while back about a man who shot and I think killed an officer in a police car because the man believed the officer was attempting to run over and kill him with his car. The man was tried and found innocent of all charges I think because the officer had no lawful authority or legal reason to run the man down with his car. Then there was a DA interviewed on the news and he stated we all have the right to resist and defend ourselves against an unlawful arrest. So the cases do happen, but of course they don't make main stream news.
    Last edited by Motofixxer; 09-18-2012 at 04:33 PM.
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    Re: Lawful Resistance....

    My concern would be staying on the scene after defending yourself against a cop. His buddies are going to be irate and probably use deadly force against you.

    How would you handle the situation after? Run home and call a lawyer? Run to the nearest FBI office? Stay there and hope you don't get shot by the officers responding backup, when they see a shot cop on the floor and a gun in your hand?

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    1. I will NEVER consent to ANY search.
    2. I will not speak when not REQUIRED by law (notification when carrying concealed, etc.) without my lawyer present.
    3. I will record all LEO interactions.
    4. I will do the maximum harm possible to a misbehaving cop's career, finances and reputation.


    It is enough for me to withhold all consent.

    My real reaction comes after the fact in a scorched earth, no prisoners campaign against a cop who violates me as well as the department which wrongfully and negligently employs him.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Deanimator has his reasons I guess. And of course nothing he said was illegal.

    With cops I say "sure, I'll answer ALL your questions ... in court" and watch their head explode ....

    Of course you should not talk or give any statements to the police -- ain't gonna help ya, only can hurt ya.

    Even when they are investigating a crime I had nothing to do with ... I could say something they don't like.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post

    My question to all of you is would you resist an unlawful action taken against you by an officer? How far would you take it?
    We are a nation of laws ... the laws apply equally to all ... that you are the President, another "public servant" or not makes no difference ... we are a nation of laws.

    As for how far do you take it ... my answer is - lawfully - all the way. You do not have to take abuse from anyone, let alone a "public servant" and the only way to prevent that is that YOU must know the law. With that said you may wish to review "GOING PRO SE" as posted in the legal form. It's up to you to be a victim or not.

    As for me and going "all the way", when a public servant steps out of line, and they do all too often these days, unless it's really serious I normally just turn my back and walk away but if the idiot wants to "push it" he/she will have a fight which in all probability they never in their wildest dreams ever saw coming. What am I talking about? See 42 USC 1983, also see Ex Parti Young (1908). You would be well advised to use these - don't abuse them - there's a big difference.

    tyc

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

    Resisting or interfering with arrest--penalty. 575.150.

    4. It is no defense to a prosecution pursuant to subsection 1 of this section that the law enforcement officer was acting unlawfully in making the arrest. However, nothing in this section shall be construed to bar civil suits for unlawful arrest.

    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes%5Cc5...5750000150.htm
    The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    I guess that could be an added question. What is it worth to you to defend liberty of yourself or others?

    I have seen the tables turned once or twice, and that gives me hope that the system can fix itself.
    The system can not and will not fix itself. We The People have to fix it and the cops, prosecutors, and yes the judges are NOT part of We The People.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

    The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.
    Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically State v Robinson.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900 View Post
    Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically State v Robinson.
    "An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery."
    (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

    "Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense."
    (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

    "One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance."
    (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
    .
    "These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence."
    Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

    Just some quotes ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

    The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.
    You didn't look hard enough.
    See Ex Parte Young
    See 42 USC Section 1983

    tyc

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker6900;1827032
    Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically [i]State v Robinson
    You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.

    You CAN sue an individual (ANY AND ALL INDIVIDUALS) who violate your constitutional rights - that he/she/they work for the state or any of it's subordinate agencies does not matter.
    See Ex Parti Young (1909). Check the "stripping clause"
    See 42 USC Section 1983 "... anyone ..."
    See The legal page on THIS SITE, look for PRO SE

    tyc

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    "An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery."
    (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

    "Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense."
    (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

    "One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance."
    (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
    .
    "These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence."
    Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

    Just some quotes ...
    What you have offered is PARTLY TRUE. It does NOT apply to all states

    (State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260 ...... .................................................. ........................). ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN ME.

    (State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100) .................................................. .............................. ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN NC

    (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910) .................................................. ...................................... ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN GA.

    Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903 ..... ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN TX

    Ex Parti Young applies to ALL STATES
    42 USC Section 1983 applies to ALL STATES

    tyc

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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.

    You CAN sue an individual (ANY AND ALL INDIVIDUALS) who violate your constitutional rights - that he/she/they work for the state or any of it's subordinate agencies does not matter.
    See Ex Parti Young (1909). Check the "stripping clause"
    See 42 USC Section 1983 "... anyone ..."
    See The legal page on THIS SITE, look for PRO SE

    tyc
    In my state you can ... if you ask (not kidding!)

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    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tyc View Post
    You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.
    While I agree that you cannot sue the state (and why would I want to? I'm the state), you can certainly sue the agents of the state in their individual and official capacities, if you can show that they misused or operated outside of their granted authority. It is certainly possible to strip their immunity.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Amendment 11 - Judicial Limits. Ratified 2/7/1795.

    The Judicial power of the United States shall not be construed to extend to any suit in law or equity, commenced or prosecuted against one of the United States by Citizens of another State, or by Citizens or Subjects of any Foreign State.
    All this says is that the feds cannot sue a state, not your own, on you behalf. Nor can the feds be used by a foreigner to sue any state.

    So, if you want to sue Illinois for violating your 2A right you have to move to Illinois, become a resident of Illinois, get busted on a unlawful use of weapon charge in Illinois, and then sue the state of Illinois in state courts. You can not use the federal judiciary to sue the state of Illinois.

    Typically it is some podunk town cop that gets ya and you are suing him and his department/city for hiring a nitwit. But, if you get busted by a Illinois state trooper you are suing the state of Illinois, so, get busted by a Illinois state trooper.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member Brimstone Baritone's Avatar
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    No. You cannot sue a state, either in federal or state court, even if you live in that state. The 11th amendment, couple with the SCOTUS decisions Hans v. Louisiana and Alden v. Maine have closed that door, unless the state consents to the lawsuit.

    You can sue the agents of the state in their official capacities if you can show they acted unconstitutionally. A state cannot authorize its agent to act unconstitutionally, so it is possible to strip their immunity when they act outside the bounds of their granted authority. This idea is first raised in Ex Parte Young, IIRC.
    There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away, mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting. I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing. Doomed to crumble, unless we grow and strengthen our communication. -Tool, "Schism"

  23. #23
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    3. A State’s constitutional privilege to assert its sovereign immunity in its own courts does not confer upon the State a concomitant right to disregard the Constitution or valid federal law. States and their officers are bound by obligations imposed by the Constitution and federal statutes that comport with the constitutional design. Limits implicit in the constitutional principle of sovereign immunity strike the proper balance between the supremacy of federal law and the separate sovereignty of the States. The first limit is that sovereign immunity bars suits only in the absence of consent. Many States have enacted statutes consenting to suits and have consented to some suits pursuant to the plan of the Convention or to subsequent constitutional Amendments. The second important limit is that sovereign immunity bars suits against States but not against lesser entities, such as municipal corporations, or against state officers for injunctive or declaratory relief or for money damages when sued in their individual capacities. Pp. 46—48.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-436.ZS.html
    A state can be sued in their own courts if they violate the US Constitution or federal law that "comports with the constitutional design."

    I can not sue The State of Missouri in federal court nor can I sue The State of Missouri in a state court for the unlawful acts of a nitwit cop, even a state trooper. But, if I am busted by a state agent on the authority of a state "law" that violates the US Constitution or federal law, as described above, then it seems that the state can be sued. In practical terms it seems that your assessment is correct.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    I can not sue The State of Missouri in federal court nor can I sue The State of Missouri in a state court for the unlawful acts of a nitwit cop, even a state trooper. But, if I am busted by a state agent on the authority of a state "law" that violates the US Constitution or federal law, as described above, then it seems that the state can be sued. In practical terms it seems that your assessment is correct.
    You are not entirely right about this ...

    It has to be understood right up front in that a state can be sued by an individual IF THE STATE CONSENTS to the action and if the state agrees to be sued the state is NOT violating the federal constitution nor in all probability any portion of its own state constitution.

    If a state does NOT agree to be sued and as a state can not order its agent/s to violate your rights, should the agent/s of the state violate your rights, in that event you get the individual/s name/s and by way of 42 USC section 1983 and by way of Ex Parti Young (1909) you sue the individuals in a federal district court.

    tyc
    Last edited by tyc; 09-20-2012 at 07:47 PM.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brimstone Baritone View Post
    No. You cannot sue a state, either in federal or state court, even if you live in that state. The 11th amendment, couple with the SCOTUS decisions Hans v. Louisiana and Alden v. Maine have closed that door, unless the state consents to the lawsuit.

    You can sue the agents of the state in their official capacities if you can show they acted unconstitutionally. A state cannot authorize its agent to act unconstitutionally, so it is possible to strip their immunity when they act outside the bounds of their granted authority. This idea is first raised in Ex Parte Young, IIRC.

    *cough*

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