Lawful Resistance....

Tucker6900 · Sep 18, 2012

This thread is meant for responses of LAWFUL resistance.

I have had numerous discussions with friends and other activists about resistance of unlawful detainment and arrest. Others here have discussed it in passing, and I am curious as to the thoughts and opinions of whoever cares to share.

IMHO, in recent years, the police have turned the court system into their free pass for unlawful detainment and arrest of otherwise law abiding citizens. Generally, the citizen will eventually give in to the bullying tactics presented by officers who want nothing more than to push their personal agenda and fight the battle in court. I think this is getting out of hand. I have seen numerous videos and stories of this happening, and its an unfortunate waste of the "justice" system. The offending officers are generally not held responsible for their crimes, and walk away without punishment. While the offended citizens are left to foot the bill.

I understand that some believe in passive resistance, while others believe that one should never resist.

My beliefs are simple. It doesnt matter if you are a police officer, mayor, preacher, DEA, FBI, CIA, President, etc. If you assault, detain, arrest, or seize property unlawfully...You are a criminal. There is no badge, certification, quaification, or anything else that gives anyone the rights to violate mine.

My question to all of you is would you resist an unlawful action taken against you by an officer? How far would you take it?

I want everyone who reads this to know that I do not condone unlawful resistance. These questions are meant to bring discussion of resistance to a known unlawful action.

REALteach4u · Sep 18, 2012

The problem is, has been, and will likely always be that the municipalities can institute their own laws on such matters effectively making it a crime for you to not comply with an officer. Even some States have poorly worded laws on the matter, but RAS tends to come up nearly 100% of the time. Missouri already has such an issue in one city that will likely wind up going to court within the next year.

Remember, if we resist they can throw an entire menu of charges at us....disorderly conduct and obstruction are just the tip of the iceberg. Sadly, that means when YOU, the citizen, go to court that the LEO is deemed a trustworthy expert. This is known as the win-win scenario for LE and several know just how to abuse it.

If they charge you, your information on the matter is public record and that can be devastating to your employment and embarrasing for your family. It costs you money to get it to court to try to defend yourself against the issue and there's no guarantee that you'll win. So if you somehow get it tossed out it will then cost you even more money to have it all expunged. If you want to recover damages then you're forced to pay even more money to file the lawsuit for recovery.

Even if the LEO knows it's a lost cause you, the citizen, still lose.
This is exactly why LEOs should be treated like the average criminal when they violate the public trust and break the law. Rather than lower the standards under the guise of "in the line of duty" we need to hold them to a much higher standard.

Fuller Malarkey · Sep 18, 2012

http://constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

I keep this bookmarked.

This issue weighs heavy on me. I'm not so much concerned about an interaction with myself and police, I'm worried about an impulsive reaction on my part to police abusing someone else. I don't think I could play witness to them beating another person to death again. Not when some intervention on my part might save them. I did that once. The guilt and shame eats me like cancer.

Tucker6900 · Sep 18, 2012

Fuller Malarkey said:
http://constitution.org/uslaw/defunlaw.htm

I keep this bookmarked.

As do I.

I am sorry that you had to witness such atrocity. But we learn from our mistakes. And situations as the one you described are happening to often to be ignored.

As a citizen, I charge myself with an oath of upholding the Constitution. Which includes defending the rights of others against such situations. Thanks for the post.

Tucker6900 · Sep 18, 2012

REALteach4u said:
If they charge you, your information on the matter is public record and that can be devastating to your employment and embarrasing for your family. It costs you money to get it to court to try to defend yourself against the issue and there's no guarantee that you'll win. So if you somehow get it tossed out it will then cost you even more money to have it all expunged. If you want to recover damages then you're forced to pay even more money to file the lawsuit for recovery.

I guess that could be an added question. What is it worth to you to defend liberty of yourself or others?

I have seen the tables turned once or twice, and that gives me hope that the system can fix itself.

davidmcbeth · Sep 18, 2012

I tattooed this on my winky winky ...

No but really, I don't consent to searches for example...and at the airport I run into the commies full force.

I just tell them do not violate my rights and I do not consent to a search that violates my rights and any physical touching that goes beyond that will be treated as a assault, battery, sexual assault, or whatever the circumstances warrant.. This gets them thinking ... and they don't get near my winky winky ...

And its impossible for them to argue ... what they gonna say "you have to let us violate your rights" or "you gave up your rights" (I had one actually say this to me .... big mistake on her part as I started berating her right on the spot, using big boy words .. she ended up crying and needed to take a break ... score one against commie pinkos!) ... or "what do you mean" or "hey, I understand but I am just doing my job" ... "If you complain you'll go to jail"..heard them all....and yet not one has violated me. Go figure ... when one is in the right, the party in the wrong always backs down

Motofixxer · Sep 18, 2012

I read a story a while back about a man who shot and I think killed an officer in a police car because the man believed the officer was attempting to run over and kill him with his car. The man was tried and found innocent of all charges I think because the officer had no lawful authority or legal reason to run the man down with his car. Then there was a DA interviewed on the news and he stated we all have the right to resist and defend ourselves against an unlawful arrest. So the cases do happen, but of course they don't make main stream news.

SPOProds · Sep 18, 2012

My concern would be staying on the scene after defending yourself against a cop. His buddies are going to be irate and probably use deadly force against you.

How would you handle the situation after? Run home and call a lawyer? Run to the nearest FBI office? Stay there and hope you don't get shot by the officers responding backup, when they see a shot cop on the floor and a gun in your hand?

Deanimator · Sep 18, 2012

I will NEVER consent to ANY search.
I will not speak when not REQUIRED by law (notification when carrying concealed, etc.) without my lawyer present.
I will record all LEO interactions.
I will do the maximum harm possible to a misbehaving cop's career, finances and reputation.

It is enough for me to withhold all consent.

My real reaction comes after the fact in a scorched earth, no prisoners campaign against a cop who violates me as well as the department which wrongfully and negligently employs him.

davidmcbeth · Sep 18, 2012

Deanimator has his reasons I guess. And of course nothing he said was illegal.

With cops I say "sure, I'll answer ALL your questions ... in court" and watch their head explode ....

Of course you should not talk or give any statements to the police -- ain't gonna help ya, only can hurt ya.

Even when they are investigating a crime I had nothing to do with ... I could say something they don't like.

tyc · Sep 19, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
My question to all of you is would you resist an unlawful action taken against you by an officer? How far would you take it?

We are a nation of laws ... the laws apply equally to all ... that you are the President, another "public servant" or not makes no difference ... we are a nation of laws.

As for how far do you take it ... my answer is - lawfully - all the way. You do not have to take abuse from anyone, let alone a "public servant" and the only way to prevent that is that YOU must know the law. With that said you may wish to review "GOING PRO SE" as posted in the legal form. It's up to you to be a victim or not.

As for me and going "all the way", when a public servant steps out of line, and they do all too often these days, unless it's really serious I normally just turn my back and walk away but if the idiot wants to "push it" he/she will have a fight which in all probability they never in their wildest dreams ever saw coming. What am I talking about? See 42 USC 1983, also see Ex Parti Young (1908). You would be well advised to use these - don't abuse them - there's a big difference.

tyc

OC for ME · Sep 19, 2012

In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

Resisting or interfering with arrest--penalty. 575.150.

4. It is no defense to a prosecution pursuant to subsection 1 of this section that the law enforcement officer was acting unlawfully in making the arrest. However, nothing in this section shall be construed to bar civil suits for unlawful arrest.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes\c500-599\5750000150.htm

The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.

OC for ME · Sep 19, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
I guess that could be an added question. What is it worth to you to defend liberty of yourself or others?

I have seen the tables turned once or twice, and that gives me hope that the system can fix itself.

The system can not and will not fix itself. We The People have to fix it and the cops, prosecutors, and yes the judges are NOT part of We The People.

Tucker6900 · Sep 19, 2012

OC for ME said:
In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.

Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically State v Robinson.

davidmcbeth · Sep 19, 2012

Tucker6900 said:
Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically State v Robinson.

"An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery."
(State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

"Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense."
(State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

"One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance."
(Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
.
"These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence."
Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

Just some quotes ...

tyc · Sep 19, 2012

OC for ME said:
In Missouri it is against state law to resist arrest.

The problem is that nowhere can I find any criminal sanctions that could be applied to the thug cop when it is determined that he is a thug cop who unlawfully arrested you.

You didn't look hard enough.
See Ex Parte Young
See 42 USC Section 1983

tyc

tyc · Sep 19, 2012

Tucker6900;1827032 said:
Iowa has a similar law. However, USSC and other state supreme courts have ruled against such laws, See John Elk v US, Runyan v State, Jones v State. Specifically State v Robinson

You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.

You CAN sue an individual (ANY AND ALL INDIVIDUALS) who violate your constitutional rights - that he/she/they work for the state or any of it's subordinate agencies does not matter.
See Ex Parti Young (1909). Check the "stripping clause"
See 42 USC Section 1983 "... anyone ..."
See The legal page on THIS SITE, look for PRO SE

tyc

tyc · Sep 19, 2012

davidmcbeth said:
"An illegal arrest is an assault and battery. The person so attempted to be restrained of his liberty has the same right to use force in defending himself as he would in repelling any other assault and battery."
(State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260).

"Each person has the right to resist an unlawful arrest. In such a case, the person attempting the arrest stands in the position of a wrongdoer and may be resisted by the use of force, as in self- defense."
(State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100).

"One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance."
(Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).
.
"These principles apply as well to an officer attempting to make an arrest, who abuses his authority and transcends the bounds thereof by the use of unnecessary force and violence, as they do to a private individual who unlawfully uses such force and violence."
Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903.

Just some quotes ...

What you have offered is PARTLY TRUE. It does NOT apply to all states

(State v. Robinson, 145 ME. 77, 72 ATL. 260 ...... ..........................................................................). ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN ME.

(State v. Mobley, 240 N.C. 476, 83 S.E. 2d 100) ................................................................................ ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN NC

(Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910) ........................................................................................ ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN GA.

Jones v. State, 26 Tex. App. I; Beaverts v. State, 4 Tex. App. 1 75; Skidmore v. State, 43 Tex. 93, 903 ..... ONLY APPLIES TO THOSE WHO LIVE IN TX

Ex Parti Young applies to ALL STATES
42 USC Section 1983 applies to ALL STATES

tyc

davidmcbeth · Sep 20, 2012

tyc said:
You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.

You CAN sue an individual (ANY AND ALL INDIVIDUALS) who violate your constitutional rights - that he/she/they work for the state or any of it's subordinate agencies does not matter.
See Ex Parti Young (1909). Check the "stripping clause"
See 42 USC Section 1983 "... anyone ..."
See The legal page on THIS SITE, look for PRO SE

tyc

In my state you can ... if you ask (not kidding!)

Brimstone Baritone · Sep 20, 2012

tyc said:
You can NOT sue a state (any of it's subordiante agencies or any individual who works for the state or one of it's agencies). The 11th Amendment forbids it.

While I agree that you cannot sue the state (and why would I want to? I'm the state), you can certainly sue the agents of the state in their individual and official capacities, if you can show that they misused or operated outside of their granted authority. It is certainly possible to strip their immunity.

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