Was Detained and Searched by Tacoma PD today.

EMNofSeattle said:

So let me get this straight, you approached police told them you were armed and asked if you can carry on the bus, was told no and then offloaded your notebooks with cited law saying you could?

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No, my gun was in my backpack, in its holster, unloaded and with the slide locked back. The cop illegally searched my bag after taking it from me after I pulled out my notebook. I never even mentioned the gun to the officer. I was asking him a firearms related question and he jumped to "you can't carry a gun on the bus" That responce had nothing to do with my question at all.

First off approaching a cop telling him you're armed and then asking him if you can carry on a transit vehicle you're about to board will certainly be seen as RAS, this is the definition of RAS "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts". (Terry v. Ohio) specific fact, the officer was minding his own business, fact you approached the officer to argue with him voluntarily, he did not detain you until after you approached him, fact you told him you were armed. If you ask "can I carry a gun on the bus" and he goes "no" and you throw down your backpack after saying "wanna bet?" and are digging into it, that alone there can be grounds for justifiable homicide, RAS for an investigation is no stretch.

The officer conducts one, leaves, comes back and asks to talk to you, you mouth off to him and he issues you a notice of trespass after you dare him to, bad move.

Frankly I'm almost certain you're not giving us the whole story, your own version of events leads me to believe the officers were justified in issuing you a trespass notice, just from you dropping a pack on the ground and digging in it after challenging the officer about carrying guns alone, that's an overtly aggressive action.

Are you the same guy who had rights restored following a felony conviction who needed mental help and is now in a limbo over guns in your apartment? I really think you should give your gun to someone you trust for safe keeping, review the laws and the forums here, and then after you know enough to carry without getting in trouble at every turn, then retrieve your gun and start carrying again.

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Again, I never told the officer I was armed, I wasn't open carrying, the gun was in "transport mode". I never asked him if I could carry a gun on the bus. With everything that happened, I honestly totally forgot the original question. I didn't even get to finish the question before he jumped the gun and told me I couldnt carry a gun on the bus. As soon as he said that however, my confrontational stance kicked in cuz suddenly this officer was completely rude and I wasn't going to put up with it.

Grim_Night said:

At about 4:15 this afternoon, I was waiting for my Pierce Transit bus to take me home after my appointment near the tacoma mall. I was at the transit center when I saw an officer. I had a quick firearms question to ask him so I appoached him while calling out to him. I asked my question to which he right away said "You can't have firearms on the bus!" Without thinking, I said "wanna bet?" At which point I set my backpack down on the ground so I could get my notebook out with my washington state firearms RCWs list. I had my hand on my notebook when he suddenly got defencive and told me to stop as I was pulling my notebook out. He then grabbed my back and searched it.

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Grim_Night said:

No, my gun was in my backpack, in its holster, unloaded and with the slide locked back. The cop illegally searched my bag after taking it from me after I pulled out my notebook. I never even mentioned the gun to the officer. I was asking him a firearms related question and he jumped to "you can't carry a gun on the bus" That responce had nothing to do with my question at all.


Again, I never told the officer I was armed, I wasn't open carrying, the gun was in "transport mode". I never asked him if I could carry a gun on the bus. With everything that happened, I honestly totally forgot the original question. I didn't even get to finish the question before he jumped the gun and told me I couldnt carry a gun on the bus. As soon as he said that however, my confrontational stance kicked in cuz suddenly this officer was completely rude and I wasn't going to put up with it.

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So what did you ask that caused all this misery?

EMNofSeattle said:

So what did you ask that caused all this misery?

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I honestly don't remember. I had just gotten on the bus I was going to take to get home. I saw the officer come up to the door of the bus and talk to the driver, I random gun related question popped into my head and I decided to go ask the officer since he was right there. Since my gun was in my backpack, I wasn't going to leave it on the bus unattended. so I took it with me slung over my shoulder. Again, I started to ask my question and as soon as I even mentioned "firearms" he jumped down my throat and told me I couldn't take a gun on the bus. I never even finished the question.

EMNofSeattle said:

Are you the same guy who had rights restored following a felony conviction who needed mental help and is now in a limbo over guns in your apartment? I really think you should give your gun to someone you trust for safe keeping, review the laws and the forums here, and then after you know enough to carry without getting in trouble at every turn, then retrieve your gun and start carrying again.

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#1 My mental health issue is and was a purely emotional one and it was over 10 years ago.

#2 my juvenile record is over 18 years old... I haven't done a damn thing wrong since I was in my teens.

#3 my housing issue is because I simple told the people in charge that I was applying for my CPL, they jumped the gun and thought that I was getting a gun. The fact that they were right isn't the issue. Its that they assumed I was and went into automatic gun prohabition mode when I even mentioned the CPL. They still don't *know* that I have a gun, they only suspect but that will get them nowhere. NOBODY in my apartment complex or even associated with my apartment complex even knows that I have a gun. in fact, a grand total of 4 people know I have my gun. My 2 best friends, and the 2 people that I met at starbucks in lakewood last week. (and anybody on here that bothers to read any of the threads I have posted in reguarding my gun.)

#4 I have studied the laws reguarding firearms and I'm very well versed. Every once in a while, I may have a question that I'll think of that isn't specifically covered by the RCWs or is a bit ambiguous and I will take a chance and see what an officer may know about the issue.

#5 there is no need what so ever for me to give my gun to anybody. I know what I am doing, and safety is of utmost importance to me reguarding firearms. When I do OC, I do it with just the mag in the gun with no round chambered so that I can remove the mag and unload it without having to remove the weapon from the holster. When I get my CPL, that will change completely. I will be carrying it fully loaded all the time. In my apartment, there is a full mag and 1 in the chamber but as soon as I leave, that mag comes out, I eject the loaded round and pop the mag back in.

EMNofSeattle said:

First off approaching a cop telling him you're armed and then asking him if you can carry on a transit vehicle you're about to board will certainly be seen as RAS,

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First off all this is ridiculous. RAS of what crime?

Second off your making many assumptions.
Try being supportive to others gun owners.

EMNofSeattle said:

So let me get this straight, you approached police told them you were armed and asked if you can carry on the bus, was told no and then offloaded your notebooks with cited law saying you could?

First off approaching a cop telling him you're armed and then asking him if you can carry on a transit vehicle you're about to board will certainly be seen as RAS, this is the definition of RAS "specific and articulable facts", "taken together with rational inferences from those facts". (Terry v. Ohio) specific fact, the officer was minding his own business, fact you approached the officer to argue with him voluntarily, he did not detain you until after you approached him, fact you told him you were armed. If you ask "can I carry a gun on the bus" and he goes "no" and you throw down your backpack after saying "wanna bet?" and are digging into it, that alone there can be grounds for justifiable homicide, RAS for an investigation is no stretch.

The officer conducts one, leaves, comes back and asks to talk to you, you mouth off to him and he issues you a notice of trespass after you dare him to, bad move.

Frankly I'm almost certain you're not giving us the whole story, your own version of events leads me to believe the officers were justified in issuing you a trespass notice, just from you dropping a pack on the ground and digging in it after challenging the officer about carrying guns alone, that's an overtly aggressive action.

Are you the same guy who had rights restored following a felony conviction who needed mental help and is now in a limbo over guns in your apartment? I really think you should give your gun to someone you trust for safe keeping, review the laws and the forums here, and then after you know enough to carry without getting in trouble at every turn, then retrieve your gun and start carrying again.

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+100

Grim, I'm sure you're a good enough guy, but you're running around mouthing off to everyone and hootin and hollerin about your gun. You are being a horrible example to the rest of the population of what we stand for. You need to cool your jets and figure out if you should even be carrying. Just a heads up, a felony isn't the only thing that can keep you from having a firearm, having a judge declare you mentally unstable or unsound is also grounds. Given your posts and the fact that you have already admitted that you've been in and out of the mental health system, you might want to check on that. In some cases, certain medications can be grounds for revocation as well. You don't want to lose your rights all together just because you want to carry right now. Maybe wait until you're a little bit more stable, socially, financially, etc.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

twoskinsonemanns said:

First off all this is ridiculous. RAS of what crime?

Second off your making many assumptions.
Try being supportive to others gun owners.

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Have you read his other posts? Just having a firearm does not garner my loyalty and support. There is an expectation that you conduct yourself appropriately when in the pubic eye. From grim's own postings bear a painfully obvious witness to his conduct in public. The only thing he is successfully doing is making us as a group look like a bunch of loonies with guns. Remember, it only take a little leaven to affect the entire loaf.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

DamonK said:

+100

Grim, I'm sure you're a good enough guy, but you're running around mouthing off to everyone and hootin and hollerin about your gun. You are being a horrible example to the rest of the population of what we stand for. You need to cool your jets and figure out if you should even be carrying. Just a heads up, a felony isn't the only thing that can keep you from having a firearm, having a judge declare you mentally unstable or unsound is also grounds. Given your posts and the fact that you have already admitted that you've been in and out of the mental health system, you might want to check on that. In some cases, certain medications can be grounds for revocation as well. You don't want to lose your rights all together just because you want to carry right now. Maybe wait until you're a little bit more stable, socially, financially, etc.

Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2

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Seriously? Did you actually read the original post? Or did you just read the one responce from somebody that also didn't read the original post? Who am I running my mouth off to? This one cop? This one that took my backpack and searched it illegaly? This fine standup representative of the police department? Who am I hooting and hollering to? I've open carried it twice since I got it... I carried it on the day that I actually picked it up (the 12th) which was long enough to take it home and the next day (the 13th) that I went to meet up with 2 guys from this forum and later went to the rangeon the same day. That's it! I've carried it in my backpack ever since and nobody even knows that I have it... Unless you count the random anonomous people on this forum. I've carried it in my backpack many times since last wendsday and nobody at all even know I had it. In fact, the only place I have carried it is in my backpack since the 13th and that is how I am going to keep carrying it till I get my CPL.

As for being in and out of the mental health system, I was never in it in the first place... I voluntarily asked for help when I was 23 and was recieving care for a grand total of 2 years. I have never been in a hospital or whatever. I have only ever been an outpatient at best seeking counseling. To deal with depression... Seriously? Maybe you should not jump to conclusions about the little bits of information I am choosing to share. I don't give full details about my personal life for a reason as I'm sure most anybody here does not either.

Please, learn to read and not just parrot other people's responces. I've had the gun for over a week and had 1 encounter with an officer. That encounter was today.

DamonK said:

Have you read his other posts? Just having a firearm does not garner my loyalty and support. There is an expectation that you conduct yourself appropriately when in the pubic eye. From grim's own postings bear a painfully obvious witness to his conduct in public. The only thing he is successfully doing is making us as a group look like a bunch of loonies with guns. Remember, it only take a little leaven to affect the entire loaf.

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Dude, seriously... you obviously don't read a damn thing and I'm seriously thinking you're just being a troll. Feel free to quote anything that I have ever posted that shows I have ever done anything wrong... If you honestly bother to check, I'm sure that you will find that I do in fact research everything I do reguarding firearms. I know the laws, I know what I need to do and I know how to handle myself. NOTHING I have posted on these forums can possibly show that I am anything else other then responcible with a weapon.

Grim_Night said:

Seriously? Did you actually read the original post? Or did you just read the one responce from somebody that also didn't read the original post? Who am I running my mouth off to? This one cop? This one that took my backpack and searched it illegaly? This fine standup representative of the police department? Who am I hooting and hollering to? I've open carried it twice since I got it... I carried it on the day that I actually picked it up (the 12th) which was long enough to take it home and the next day (the 13th) that I went to meet up with 2 guys from this forum and later went to the rangeon the same day. That's it! I've carried it in my backpack ever since and nobody even knows that I have it... Unless you count the random anonomous people on this forum. I've carried it in my backpack many times since last wendsday and nobody at all even know I had it. In fact, the only place I have carried it is in my backpack since the 13th and that is how I am going to keep carrying it till I get my CPL.

As for being in and out of the mental health system, I was never in it in the first place... I voluntarily asked for help when I was 23 and was recieving care for a grand total of 2 years. I have never been in a hospital or whatever. I have only ever been an outpatient at best seeking counseling. To deal with depression... Seriously? Maybe you should not jump to conclusions about the little bits of information I am choosing to share. I don't give full details about my personal life for a reason as I'm sure most anybody here does not either.

Please, learn to read and not just parrot other people's responces. I've had the gun for over a week and had 1 encounter with an officer. That encounter was today.



Dude, seriously... you obviously don't read a damn thing and I'm seriously thinking you're just being a troll. Feel free to quote anything that I have ever posted that shows I have ever done anything wrong... If you honestly bother to check, I'm sure that you will find that I do in fact research everything I do reguarding firearms. I know the laws, I know what I need to do and I know how to handle myself.FAIL NOTHING I have posted on these forums can possibly show that I am anything else other then responcible with a weapon.

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Sir, you come off as annoyingly ill-informed, arrogant and borderline unstable. You have recieved some great advice from others on this thread. Take a step back, absorb it.

OPSEC.

Learn it. Love it. Live it.

Delete this ****. Get proof of future encounters. Only release the proof to people you trust and know personally.

... and I will keep hounding them till they do or they block my telephone number... then I'll just get a new number and start all over again.
...
I saw the officer come up to the door of the bus and talk to the driver, I random gun related question popped into my head

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You have seriously got to do some work on impulse control. In your first statement above, you've just said, in public, that you intend to harass the folks at PT. In your second, you describe how you brought this whole thing on by thinking you ought to stop an officer, who's going about his duties, and pester him with random gun-related questions.

kparker said:

You have seriously got to do some work on impulse control. In your first statement above, you've just said, in public, that you intend to harass the folks at PT. In your second, you describe how you brought this whole thing on by thinking you ought to stop an officer, who's going about his duties, and pester him with random gun-related questions.

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I guess exaggeration never occured to you reguarding the phone issue... As for pestering the officer #1 he was off duty at the time working as a private citizen at the time (I didn't know that at the time). I have seen these guys working before and most of the time their duties include sitting in their car for 20 minutes at a time while buses are not at the transit center. Then they walk around chatting up the drivers for a few minutes then take another 20 minute break. I know this because with pierce transit, there are some buses that only run once an hour so you get to sit there and watch these off duty officers "work". I know that some people on these forums feel that ALL LEOs are bad and that none of them can be trusted. In my experience, I have found that quite a few are reaelly nice people and very helpful. While others such as the one I delt with recently can be complete asses for no other reason.

I didn't know till today that these officers were performing their "duties" in an off duty capacity. When I asked the guy for his supervisor, he flat out told me that he had none and I asked him about his "boss" which is when he told me that he had a boss with the police but that he was off duty and working for PT privately. I was brought up that you trust police because they are here to help and in most cases, that has proven to be true in my experience. This just happened to be a bad experience. Am I going to let it rule all future opinions of police? No because I know that not everybody is like that.

A few tidbits of gun information I have recieved lately reguarding guns and gun laws have come from officers I have encountered while "working". One such officer who is quite nice, friendly and seems honorable visits a gas station near where I live and constantly shows up to get a cold drink or a snack while "working" and he will stand around and chat up anybody in the store while taking a break. This is the same officer that helped me decide on which gun to purchase. I admit that the situation today could have been handled better on my part, but I was ticked that this officer was flat out rude to me from the very second I started talking to him. He said something I knew to be false and said it in a way as if to say that I was a complete dumb @$$ for even bringing up the subject. Once the officer was done giving me a hard time the first time I tried to ignore him but he continued to harrass me. The officer from the gas station has already told me that I am well within my legal rights to tell any officer to "go pound sand" as long as I have done nothing wrong and the officer hasn't a leg to stand on. So I did and went back to my book. He pushed the subject not I.

Boomboy007 said:

First, let me say I how sorry I am that you got shafted on your ride. That said, I really do not understand why my fellow gun nuts insist on "chatting it up" with police officers. We must ALL remember that police officers are NOT fellow "gun guys or gals"; they are NOT our friend or buddy or pal; they ARE agents of the state who, for the most part, dislike "common" citizens who DARE to carry what they consider their exclusive symbol of authority, a gun.

Unless I need to report a crime, you will not find me yukking it up with any LEO. Just so you understand where I am coming from, I was a cop for three years. Trust me when I say that the majority of these guys hold us (armed citizens) in contempt.

Now get your butt down to the police department and file a complaint. You don't need a lawyer for that. Also, if it is legal to carry concealed with a cpl on the bus, then it is legal to carry openly without one.

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I concur! Although sometimes this lesson is hard learned.

Orphan said:

Thanks for starting something you could not and will not finish, you just made it harder on the rest of us.

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Agreed, the OP didn't handle the situation the best he is young and learning, but the worse part of this is letting the Thugs in blue get away with their illegal actions, and enabling them to harass others.

twoskinsonemanns said:

First off all this is ridiculous. RAS of what crime?

Second off your making many assumptions.
Try being supportive to others gun owners.

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NO RAS was there EMN loves "proactive Policing" and in almost all the threads him and his ilk will rationalize why it is ok for cops (who are supposed to be constitutionally restricted) to go above and beyond the law.

Again he justifies "homicide" by cops because they are cops. IF this was a situation between two "civilians" he wouldn't be justifying this.

We have had story tellers come and go in the forum, this is not new.
If you wanted to do something about it, there will be records that you could request as to the contact, radio calls to the officers name and if anyone on the forum I would believe they would have had a public records request prepared by now.

Your story started you were waiting for the bus, then as it progressed after contacting the officer you wanted to retrieve your drink holder that was on the bus? You mean the bus arrived, you boarded and then saw an officer and departed to ask him a stupid question? Then with the noticing the officer and to make contact there must have been something saying you recognized as being one, in uniform and/or marked car but then later you refer to him as being an off duty officer ?????

Lack of acknowledge of carrying a firearm while traveling about ie firearm locked to the rear and in the holster in an opaque container in a back pack and well you have one thing down as it being unloaded.
What kind of an opaque container that you can place inside your backpack and still be viewed when the pack was open while in it's holder with the slide to the rear? Really!

Your first story about your apartment, I felt for you and now this if you are seeking notoriety I think you might have reached it, just not the notoriety you wanted.

I don't think that the OP is being a troll. He's just a guy who took the wrong initiative and does not like the results. Learning to keep one's mouth shut when its in the best interest of yourself is something that usually is learned by experience.

And all this to have dinner with a girl..

Don't poke bears.

BigDave said:

We have had story tellers come and go in the forum, this is not new.
If you wanted to do something about it, there will be records that you could request as to the contact, radio calls to the officers name and if anyone on the forum I would believe they would have had a public records request prepared by now.

Your story started you were waiting for the bus, then as it progressed after contacting the officer you wanted to retrieve your drink holder that was on the bus? You mean the bus arrived, you boarded and then saw an officer and departed to ask him a stupid question? Then with the noticing the officer and to make contact there must have been something saying you recognized as being one, in uniform and/or marked car but then later you refer to him as being an off duty officer ?????

Lack of acknowledge of carrying a firearm while traveling about ie firearm locked to the rear and in the holster in an opaque container in a back pack and well you have one thing down as it being unloaded.
What kind of an opaque container that you can place inside your backpack and still be viewed when the pack was open while in it's holder with the slide to the rear? Really!

Your first story about your apartment, I felt for you and now this if you are seeking notoriety I think you might have reached it, just not the notoriety you wanted.

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Ok Dave. The pierce transit buses are on a schedual of leaving transit centers usually at X:15 or X:45 (X = the hour), I was at the transit center about 4 pm, the bus showed up about 4:05 and wasn't going to leave till 4:15. I got on the bus started to get settled, set my big drink mug (100oz big blue AM/PM mug) on the seat and set my back pack down. I turned around to the front of the bus and saw that the officer was at the door to the bus chatting up the driver. I grabbed my bag, told the driver I was going to be right back as I had a quick question for the officer. I walked out of the bus and called to the officer while taked a few steps towards him because he had already started walking away in front of the bus and was actually only about 5-6 feet ahead of me... then everything happened.

As for him being "off duty" I didn't know that at the beginning, I thought he was an on duty working for the city of tacoma police officer. Later in the encounter, he told me that he was off duty and working for pierce transit privately. He was in fact still in TPD uniform and driving a white unmarked police car with a push plate on the front of the car but no other indication that it was a TPD vehicle.

My gun was in my backpack, in it's holster, slide locked back, unloaded, and behind 2 levels of retaining while in the holster. The backpack itself is the container meeting the requirements for RCW 19.41.060 (9)

And for the first statement you made in your quoted post, there are records, there are pierce transit facility video recordings and I actually just got off the phone with the head of pierce transit's security. He already recieved the report and was able to review the camera footage of the incident and was able to confirm my side of the story. I however do no have access to the video footage nor do I have any sort of report as nothing was actually filled out reguarding me at the time. I have a lists of the names of all 5 officers involved and the name of the person I contacted this morning at pierce transit. I won't post those details publicly.

davidmcbeth said:

I don't think that the OP is being a troll. He's just a guy who took the wrong initiative and does not like the results. Learning to keep one's mouth shut when its in the best interest of yourself is something that usually is learned by experience.

And all this to have dinner with a girl..

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Lol David... seriously no, I have no interest in having dinner with my apartment manager. Not only is she about 15 years older then me, but she had a boyfriend. I do agree that I should have kept my mouth shut once the officer started to hassle me but as you said, that's something learned through experience. I shouldn't have called him an @$$ and I shouldn't have pulled the "Wanna bet!?" line lol... I honestly thought that the question I was going to ask the officer would have only taken about 30 seconds at the most to ask and get the answer and I would have been on my way.

Grim_Night said:

I know that some people on these forums feel that ALL LEOs are bad and that none of them can be trusted.

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They may be 99% great people but without knowing which 1% is the turd in the punch bowl I can't trust a single one. Until they seem more willing to clean up their own I will not talk to the police without good reason.

After officer Karl Thompson was convicted in the Otto Zehm case a few dozen of his fellow officers saluted him as he was led from the courtroom. That kind of behavior shows that many on the force shouldn't be trusted.

DON"T TALK TO THE POLICE.

BigDeeeeeeee said:

They may be 99% great people but without knowing which 1% is the turd in the punch bowl I can't trust a single one. Until they seem more willing to clean up their own I will not talk to the police without good reason.

After officer Karl Thompson was convicted in the Otto Zehm case a few dozen of his fellow officers saluted him as he was led from the courtroom. That kind of behavior shows that many on the force shouldn't be trusted.

DON"T TALK TO THE POLICE.

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I trust that they will do their jobs - which is to arrest people ... so you are correct, don't talk to them and give them a reason.

sudden valley gunner said:

NO RAS was there EMN loves "proactive Policing" and in almost all the threads him and his ilk will rationalize why it is ok for cops (who are supposed to be constitutionally restricted) to go above and beyond the law.

Again he justifies "homicide" by cops because they are cops. IF this was a situation between two "civilians" he wouldn't be justifying this.

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RAS is not a high standard to meet. Hate to burst your bubble, but RAS means next to nothing and the right judge can find anything to be RAS, in this case you have an individual who approaches you and asks you a question (I think he asked if he could carry on the bus, and until his memory improves that's my operating assumption because it's the only thing that makes the story make sense) then after being told an answer he says

"wanna bet?" At which point I set my backpack down on the ground so I could get my notebook out with my washington state firearms RCWs list

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Which his firearm was also inside that same backpack. unless he carries two backpacks. I don't know about you but if someone comes and asks a question, and hates the answer and starts ruffling through his pack, I'm either leaving, or if not an option I'm taking immediate steps to ensure my safety. at this point nothing the officer did was in the wrong. except answering you can;t have guns on the bus, but the witness in this case suffers from faulty memory. Had an average citizen been confronted in this was and had seen his gun in his pack while he's ruffling for his noteback, I believe we already have opportunity and ability, jeopardy depends on the attitude of the OP, which seems to me that he failed that test big.

And then when they contact him later they want to talk to him, he tells them to piss off and they trespass from the bus shelter. this is consistent with their level of authority as being hired contract to provide security at Pierce County transit facilities.

Now if the OP had been approached and hassled and had his bag searched despite not approaching or saying anything to the cops, I'd be 100% on your side. but this is not one of those cases. it appears to me he detained himself.