Unlawfully arrested?

Chuck! said:

I think you meant quarrel,,,,

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Wouldn't that then need to be quarreling - gerund form?

...and the English lesson scares them away!

Moving forward

This thread has most closely gotten to the point i had hoped some group would arrive at, that being the "What can the collective, grassroots type organizations do to prevent this sort of harassment in the future?" question that was raised. It has also gotten close to a subject i am as of yet unwilling to discuss online in any detail: what happens after the criminal charges are dropped. Any hinting at this question would be to my disadvantage, no matter what i planned to do, if i planned to do anything at all. I want to call the conversation back to the initial question i mentioned.

I understand that OC.org is not a grassroots organization, it is a forum. However, i can't help but believe that these types of organizations exist in this wonderful country we find ourselves in. Has anyone ever heard of one? I truly believe that while the courts may not find my personal story to have "enough" suffering to warrant a sizable monetary claim in civil court, it surely has been one of the most trying experiences of my lifetime. It was, and is, an experience i would rather others not have to go through. Being put in jail, in particular, is not a pleasant way to spend any time, even an evening, especially knowing the entire time that you are in there because a cop broke the law. So if i may presume to guide the direction of this thread, can we not collectively brainstorm to bang out some possible ideas, or plans of action, to begin the enormous process of making sure this doesn't happen anymore? And on that note, this question is not an Ohio issue, it is a national one. Is there any way to move this thread, or start a new thread not in the Ohio forum, to expose more people to the story, and thus bring more minds into the pool?

Re: What to do?

Option 1: Follow through with this case and hope you lose at trial but win (eventually) on appeal. That should generate the case law we need, especially if it makes it to the Ohio Supreme Court. Of course, a lost appeal would ALSO generate case law.

Option 2: Find a state legislator to work with on passing a new law, or revising current law, to specify that open carry of a holstered or shoulder-slung firearm is not Disorderly Conduct, Menacing, Inducing Panic, etc. May as well clarify the stop-and-ID law while we're at it.

Option 3: Get the Attorney General to issue an opinion that reflects option 2.


Re: Going national?

The first question we should pose is "Are there ANY states that fit our ideal?"

In other words, "What states, if any already allow open carry AND have some law that doesn't allow that holstered open carry can be charged as disorderly conduct or some other BS?"

Does such a place exist for us to copy, or are we blazing the trail here?

MyWifeSaidYes said:

Re: What to do?

Option 1: Follow through with this case and hope you lose at trial but win (eventually) on appeal. That should generate the case law we need, especially if it makes it to the Ohio Supreme Court. Of course, a lost appeal would ALSO generate case law.

Option 2: Find a state legislator to work with on passing a new law, or revising current law, to specify that open carry of a holstered or shoulder-slung firearm is not Disorderly Conduct, Menacing, Inducing Panic, etc. May as well clarify the stop-and-ID law while we're at it.

Option 3: Get the Attorney General to issue an opinion that reflects option 2.


Re: Going national?

The first question we should pose is "Are there ANY states that fit our ideal?"

In other words, "What states, if any already allow open carry AND have some law that doesn't allow that holstered open carry can be charged as disorderly conduct or some other BS?"

Does such a place exist for us to copy, or are we blazing the trail here?

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This question needs to be asked in the "national" forum and not a state specific sub-forum. There is a/are state(s) that define what DC is and more importantly what DC is not. Guess what, OC is not DC in some states. Heck, there may be a SCOTUS "opinion" about this very subject.

Anyway.....what happens outside of Ohio will happen regardless of what happens in Ohio. The focus should be on what happens in Ohio. To affect change a wronged citizen must seek a redress of wrongs via the legal system. That is what the legal system is for. Start saving your pocket change.....if you desire to affect change in Ohio.

To MP: If you have no desire to endure the rigors of affecting change in Ohio then disregard the above. I would be hard pressed to be motivated myself, so I hold no judgement over you regardless of your choice.

Good luck.

Michael Porschien said:

And on that note, this question is not an Ohio issue, it is a national one. Is there any way to move this thread, or start a new thread not in the Ohio forum, to expose more people to the story, and thus bring more minds into the pool?

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It is a national issue only in a general sense. Each state has different laws. Not only are there different laws regarding the open carry of a firearm, but there are also different laws related to creating a public disturbance, and they all have different elements. You can get lots of people grumbling and shouting, but there cannot be any uniform resolution.

After almost a month of trying to contact Chief Rod Foley about Ohio open carry laws, I finally got the chance to talk with him today. I have emailed him 4 times, and have called his office and left messages with his secretary 4 times in the past 3 and a half weeks.

Today I called and once again talked with his secretary, she told me that Chief did not feel the need to respond to my request and that he was not interested in talking with me about the subject. I let her know that I would either be talking with the chief on the phone or that I would be speaking to the Chief at the next Council Meeting, at with point she put me on hold.

Two minutes later Chief gets on the phone. First thing out of his mouth, when are you going to stop calling I'm sick of you calling and bothering my secretary every day. I let him know that I only bug her once a week , and that i was going to keep calling till I got a chance to talk with him on the open carry laws here in Ohio.

Things did not go well from this point. Chief basically told me that any officer of his that did not stop and search someone that was open carrying would of been reprimanded. He stands by the actions of his officers. He then refused to listen to anything that I had to say, speaking over any questions that I tried to ask. At some point I raised my voice at which time he hung up on me.

The first time I called the Chiefs secretary put me through with Internal Affairs. At some point in the conversation this guy told me that you could not carry in a city park, and if you did that you would be arrested.

Troy, thank you for your diligence on my behalf, this is exactly the sort of attention the chief needs to be receiving for his actions and the condoned actions of his officers. Open Carry is a legal activity in Ohio. The personal beliefs of the officers in one city cannot outweigh state law, and the state law is very clear in its superiority over local ordinances. The actions of these officers have been repeatedly upheld by officials in the city government and police force, which is the core of the problem we face.

At this time i have another question for the people at OpenCarry, who i hope have not grown bored and moved on to another thread. How does one attempt to organize an open carry event among the citizens? I think this is something that sorely needs to be carried out, to show the police and government of the city of Youngstown that the people of Ohio know their rights and are not afraid to fight for them. I understand the weather is taking a turn for the freezing, but I am sure that a large enough event will have a noticeable impact on the city's officials, especially if the event is covered by local news. Does anyone here have experience with the work required to sponsor one of these walks, or meet and greets? Any posts or messages will be appreciated.

troy bilt and everyone else...

For pure entertainment value, I have 4 words:

speakerphone and voice recorder

I would have loved to hear the chiefs tone of voice.

Michael Porschien said:

...who i hope have not grown bored and moved on to another thread.

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Nope. Just waiting for the next hearing on 12/18.

Michael Porschien said:

How does one attempt to organize an open carry event among the citizens?...

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You choose a place and time, then tell people to meet you there. The more people you tell (by posting it on numerous forums, for example), the more folks may show up.

Take into account all the variables you can think of, like: How cold is it? (Warmer is better.) What time and day is it? (Weekends and evenings get more turnout, but mid-day weekdays may get more media attention.) Are there any other events happening? (Holidays, sporting events, other meet & greets, etc.)

Since there is an OFCC Youngstown Meet & Greet scheduled for 5:30 on 12/1, I would recommend scheduling something for earlier in theday on 12/1. Finish up at 5pm, and anyone who hasn't been arrested has time to make it to the Lone Star Steak House at Eastwood Mall in Niles.

:banana:

Michael Porschien said:

Troy, thank you for your diligence on my behalf, this is exactly the sort of attention the chief needs to be receiving for his actions and the condoned actions of his officers. Open Carry is a legal activity in Ohio. The personal beliefs of the officers in one city cannot outweigh state law, and the state law is very clear in its superiority over local ordinances. The actions of these officers have been repeatedly upheld by officials in the city government and police force, which is the core of the problem we face.

At this time i have another question for the people at OpenCarry, who i hope have not grown bored and moved on to another thread. How does one attempt to organize an open carry event among the citizens? I think this is something that sorely needs to be carried out, to show the police and government of the city of Youngstown that the people of Ohio know their rights and are not afraid to fight for them. I understand the weather is taking a turn for the freezing, but I am sure that a large enough event will have a noticeable impact on the city's officials, especially if the event is covered by local news. Does anyone here have experience with the work required to sponsor one of these walks, or meet and greets? Any posts or messages will be appreciated.

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I now live in Ohio and would participate in any OC event designed to shed light on your case and the horrific behavior by this department and its chief. The clearance process for my current job is over, and I am more willing to risk an unlawful legal (what an oxymoron!) action taken against me. The only reason I wouldn't be there would be the odd schedule I work.

I am sorry for what happened to you. Even worse, this chief is a danger to law-abiding citizens and must be dealt with. Let me know. I want to help.

According to my iPad, Eastwood Mall is in Warren OH. Is that the same mall? If it is, that's on helluva drive (four hours) for me, but, if I'm off that day, I'll make that drive for two OC events--including one to shame that chief.

ETA, on recording that chief: Is OH a one-party or all-party State when it comes to permission to record? TIA.

eye95 said:

According to my iPad, Eastwood Mall is in Warren OH. Is that the same mall? If it is, that's on helluva drive (four hours) for me, but, if I'm off that day, I'll make that drive for two OC events--including one to shame that chief.

ETA, on recording that chief: Is OH a one-party or all-party State when it comes to permission to record? TIA.

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Ohio is a "one party" state.
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/ohio/ohio-recording-law

Grapeshot said:

Ohio is a "one party" state.
http://www.citmedialaw.org/legal-guide/ohio/ohio-recording-law

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As it should be. Thanks.

MyWifeSaidYes said:

Nope. Just waiting for the next hearing on 12/18.

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I wanted to clear this up while im thinking about it. The next hearing is the 3rd Pre-trial set for 12-13-12 at 10 AM in Judge Kobly's courtroom. I do not expect much to happen here, but the judge should at least rule on the motion to return property, my handgun, ammo, and holster. The 18th, at 1:30 PM, is the suppression hearing, to decide whether or not the knife is admissible. I do not currently know the rules for people to walk into the courtroom during either of those events, but i will ask my attorney, and would love to see a few empty holsters in the seats if they are permitted.

@eye95: Ohio is indeed a 1 party state, or i would have been in much more legal trouble from recording the officer, and taking my phone wouldn't have been as big a deal.

In regards to a more focused event in Youngstown before the planned event in Niles, i would love to host something, but i have no idea where to begin the planning. There are plenty of little shops and whatnot in downtown Youngstown, and enough restaurants to sit down in, but if the OFCC event is also for food, that narrows down the options a bit. There's always Wick Park, (which i have open carried at many times before and which is less than a mile from downtown), but the police chief says is not permissible to walk in, (a lie, of course), so maybe doing a lap or two around the park, followed by a stroll into downtown before we head off to Niles? YSU campus is directly between those two destinations, so our course will need to be planned with enough precision to avoid stepping on the wrong sidewalk. Again, i don't really know what would attract enough attention to serve our purposes while not inconveniencing those who are adverse to walking around in the cold for an hour. There's also the very real possibility of getting arrested on trumped-up charges and having to make the drive to Youngstown's courthouse more often than you may wish to, if the cops decide to play hard.

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

Troy bilt said:

Today I called and once again talked with his secretary, she told me that Chief did not feel the need to respond to my request and that he was not interested in talking with me about the subject. I let her know that I would either be talking with the chief on the phone or that I would be speaking to the Chief at the next Council Meeting...

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I just reread this post and had something of an idea, though quite possibly an unrealistic one. This council meeting of which you speak, when is it, if you know, and how possible would it be to have a few people present to speak about this case / open carry? I would be more than willing to show up, but i do not think I am the best advocate, as i am obviously biased. However, if the threat of a more public exposure of his incompetence was enough to get him on the phone, would this not be the perfect way to increase pressure on Chief Foley? He admitted a weakness, or at least a fear, when he caved under your threat. Why should we not use this against him, for a chance to get a public, on-the-record statement on his stance on open carry? And more importantly, i would love to ask him not only how he feels about open carriers, but more importantly why he has the false impression that his personal beliefs have any impact on the law in Ohio. I would love to hear his answer.

MP, you know the area probably better than any of us, certainly than an Alabama transplant like me. Pick an eatery of sufficient size to be able to handle 6 - 12 folks that you know will not have a problem with LAC OCing. Ask to reserve an area. Post the time an place on this and other Ohio forums. I also post on OhioOC.org, but there are others. People will rezivip in those threads, giving you a good count.

Then just do it.

If there is a Starbucks around that is usually good.

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

My opinion on planning anything that may "stir the pot" is to wait till after Michael's court case is complete and if he files anything civil, after that as well. All one does before that is push buttons and make judges slightly unhappy. Yes, they have to rule to the letter of the law, but remember, that law is stretchable and to appeal is another costly measure if they rule just as an F.U. ruling.

Just my 2 cents.

I just looked at the city's web page. Im thinking Ohio open carry should sign up for, and participate in the city's Holiday Parade and Festival. Dress warm and carry heavy.

http://www.cityofyoungstownoh.org/home_page_files/savethedate2012.pdf