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Thread: Another City prohibits open carry

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Another City prohibits open carry

    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    I did not think such things ever happened on the KC side of the state and it only happened in St Louis because everyone is wrong over here..... hmmmmmmm.

    I guess it is spreading.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Missouri State Law

    Okay, as I understand it, Missouri State Law says that cities and municipalities can "regulate" open carry, but is it legal that they can ban it on the Missouri side?

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    Regular Member WOD's Avatar
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    Someone needs to get their Representatives busy working on a Preemption Law before these ordinances spread. You all know they will spread too...
    Be safe, be prepared, and carry on!

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    Unfortunate, but true, WOD. If a pre-emption law isn't passed and soon, even Kansas City may adopt ordinances that outlaw Open carry. Already, Excelsior Springs has adopted such an ordinance. I just hope and pray something is done and soon. Or we may all lose our rights to Open carry.

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    Regular Member mechanicworkman's Avatar
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    In the article link above:

    "Reno also said that while it would technically be illegal for someone to carry a firearm on his or her way to hunt or target shoot outside the city limits, police officers would have some discretion and respond to such incidents on a case-by-case basis"

    Is this true? Outside the city limits as well. Police have the discretion to respond? Obviously I do not work at 911 but, every time i have heard of a MWAG call the police respond................talk about playing with words.

    Whom ever wrote this article seems to be swaying the article to to justify to the public that is somehow OK to take away citizens rights before anyone has committed a crime and attempting to justify criminalizing something and calling it for the good of the people. ---seems like Missouri is going down hill fast
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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Curious what prompted them to pass this. Was it a recent encounter? Did someone put a bug in their ear? Have there been any other towns around there that did this? I can't believe this was passed out of thin air.....someone/something prompted this.....IMHO.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    I think it's time for those in Missouri to begin an immediate push for full preemption.
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    I think it's time for those in Missouri to begin an immediate push for full preemption.
    It's being pursued.
    "I can live for two weeks on a good compliment."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron007 View Post
    Curious what prompted them to pass this. Was it a recent encounter? Did someone put a bug in their ear? Have there been any other towns around there that did this? I can't believe this was passed out of thin air.....someone/something prompted this.....IMHO.
    Because police chiefs have excessive influence on muni boards. Hence the response to "inquiries" comment from the police chief. The police chief association is a very active anti-gun org and outs money up on a regular basis to fight citizens having guns.

    You should have seen the illegal dog and pony show the chesterfield mayor and police chief put on last year, it was pathetic, took over 20 minutes of the meeting while citizens got held to the three minute limit. Not to mention the doctored "evidence" they produced without allowing for alternative views, a couple of true PUNKS is what they are sir, punks. Does not change the fact that they had the power to do it, does not change the fact no one has the power to fight the gate keepers, but does make it clear that at the muni level, you pretty much can not trust the council person to do anything beyond retaining their own power regardless of the law.

    That is how it came about, does not change just because it is on the other side of the state, it was just slower developing over there and depending upon a very few factors, it may indeed spread rapidly.
    John C. Eastman Associate Dean of Chapman University’s School of Law "the Second Amendment, like its sister amendments, does not confer a right but rather recognizes a natural right inherent in our humanity."

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    Regular Member Redbaron007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LMTD View Post
    Because police chiefs have excessive influence on muni boards. Hence the response to "inquiries" comment from the police chief. The police chief association is a very active anti-gun org and outs money up on a regular basis to fight citizens having guns.

    You should have seen the illegal dog and pony show the chesterfield mayor and police chief put on last year, it was pathetic, took over 20 minutes of the meeting while citizens got held to the three minute limit. Not to mention the doctored "evidence" they produced without allowing for alternative views, a couple of true PUNKS is what they are sir, punks. Does not change the fact that they had the power to do it, does not change the fact no one has the power to fight the gate keepers, but does make it clear that at the muni level, you pretty much can not trust the council person to do anything beyond retaining their own power regardless of the law.

    That is how it came about, does not change just because it is on the other side of the state, it was just slower developing over there and depending upon a very few factors, it may indeed spread rapidly.

    You are 100% correct about the council members. And if you do not live in the city limits or have a hefty size business in the city; you are silent in their eyes...at least here. A resolution was presented a few years ago to ban CCW in the city parks and sidwalks. They pulled it and then passed a resolution supporting the banning of CCW in the city.

    We now have a COP who talks they support 2A, including CCW & OC....but I'm just waiting for the city council to pull/reduce funding if he doesn't support any anti-OC bill. Our council is become very liberal and isn't shy about playing politics.
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    Boycott Excelsior Springs.

    Note to self: Do not go to Excelsior Springs.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
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    Exxcelsior Spring and State Preemption

    The Missouri Legislature has claimed all gun right to thenselves but the various codes that apply seem to have a few loopholes that cities can use. No one will tell me what these looholes are . I have read RSMo 21.750 in full as well as the related codes and honestly can't see what Excelsior could have used to ban open carry. Look up 21.750 and read all of it and the related links and see for yourself.

    Four councilmen passed this with no comment. A 4-0 vote to strip us of a State Right.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    The Missouri Legislature has claimed all gun right to thenselves but the various codes that apply seem to have a few loopholes that cities can use. No one will tell me what these looholes are . I have read RSMo 21.750 in full as well as the related codes and honestly can't see what Excelsior could have used to ban open carry. Look up 21.750 and read all of it and the related links and see for yourself.

    Four councilmen passed this with no comment. A 4-0 vote to strip us of a State Right.
    Here you go:
    See 21.750.3
    Missouri Revised Statutes
    Chapter 21
    General Assembly
    Section 21.750

    August 28, 2011



    Firearms legislation preemption by general assembly, exceptions--limitation on civil recovery against firearms or ammunitions manufacturers, when, exception.
    21.750. 1. The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms, components, ammunition and supplies to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by any political subdivision of this state. Any existing or future orders, ordinances or regulations in this field are hereby and shall be null and void except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    2. No county, city, town, village, municipality, or other political subdivision of this state shall adopt any order, ordinance or regulation concerning in any way the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permit, registration, taxation other than sales and compensating use taxes or other controls on firearms, components, ammunition, and supplies except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.
    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
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    Like I said...

    As I said, I have read 21.750 in its entirety as well as 571.010 through 571.070 and 252.243. I can not see anything that applies to this city wide ban. I have posed the question to Kevin L. Jamison, Esq. A pre-emminent gun rights lawyer. I am trying to set up an open holster protest at the next city council meeting too.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    As I said, I have read 21.750 in its entirety as well as 571.010 through 571.070 and 252.243. I can not see anything that applies to this city wide ban. I have posed the question to Kevin L. Jamison, Esq. A pre-emminent gun rights lawyer. I am trying to set up an open holster protest at the next city council meeting too.
    Did you read the above post, it answers your question.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Yes I did

    I read your post and it did not answer my question. I read all oft he applicable codes and still see no line item they can apply to this situation. We do not have any TIF funded construction projects nor any game or wildlife preserves and any of the other thing they have to meet EXACTLY to enact a prohibition.

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    AS far as preemption.../

    This says it all...


    21.750. 1. The general assembly hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of legislation touching in any way firearms, components, ammunition and supplies to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance or regulation by any political subdivision of this state. Any existing or future orders, ordinances or regulations in this field are hereby and shall be null and void except as provided in subsection 3 of this section.

    Then you read all the attachments to subsection 3 and you find definitions and specification on areas or reasons that can trigger prohibition.

  19. #19
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    I read your post and it did not answer my question. I read all oft he applicable codes and still see no line item they can apply to this situation. We do not have any TIF funded construction projects nor any game or wildlife preserves and any of the other thing they have to meet EXACTLY to enact a prohibition.
    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243

    This is the staute by which they can prohibit OC.

    If you or some one you know whould like to challange this in court, cool. It is probably unconstitutional in Missouri... Art. 1 Sec. 23 of the Misosuri Constitution.

    That or a legislative action is required.

    Both are being investigated, the legislative approach (many bills) was tried last year without success. May very well be attempted next year.

    That's all I have to say about that.
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    Like Marc says, this part is what they are going on when banning open carry :

    3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243
    The bold part needs removed.

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    The other part of three

    subsection 3 only points to the other codes that define what allows the prohibition of open carry...

    "...which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070,..."

    "...provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243."
    Last edited by M1A shooter; 09-30-2012 at 12:33 PM.

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    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by M1A shooter View Post
    subsection 3 only points to the other codes that define what allows the prohibition of open carry...

    "...which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070,..."

    "...provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243."
    Ok, and your point is what?
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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    My Point

    Quote Originally Posted by mspgunner View Post
    Ok, and your point is what?
    Point being, three doesn't actually do the banning, it is the other sections that it points to. These are the items I'm trying to get the City Council to enumerate as to their recent decision to ban oc. What specifically did they use to enact this ordinance? They have so far, not responded. I'm trying to organize an empty holster protest at an upcoming council meeting to demand an answer to this question. I'm not trying to be argumentive, but it is clear that three points to other sections to allow the actual banning.
    Last edited by M1A shooter; 09-30-2012 at 01:33 PM. Reason: spelling corrections

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    email chain regarding EXSPSMO ban

    here is my email chain regarding my contact with the city council and the Attorney Generals office.

    Once again a non-answer.

    [I]Mr.Schlotzhauer,

    Is this reasonable? I cannot get the bottom of this. Is there any way the Office of the Attorney General can help? Or are the gun owners of Missouri once again held hostage by the legislature. I mean, 21.750.2 says cities, hands off, the legislature claims preemption but then 21.750.3 says ,hey, go a head and ban if you can.

    Here is another thought for your office. This is a violation the second amendment by ruling against people that cannot afford the training classes required for concealed carry and the annual endorcement fees. This denies low income people the rightt to self defense and free exerecise of their second amendment rights as well as denying them the rights addressed by 21.750.2 Does this sound like a course to follow?

    Thanks for all your help in this matter,

    Dean Carder

    --- On Thu, 10/4/12, xxxxxxx xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@ci.excelsior-springs.mo.us> wrote:


    From: xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx <xxxxxxx@ci.excelsior-springs.mo.us>
    Subject: RE: City Council - Open Carry of Firearms
    To: "Dean Carder" <deancarder@att.net>
    Date: Thursday, October 4, 2012, 7:10 PM


    Mr. Carder,



    The City considers the provisions of its Municipal Code, Missouri Statutes and the decisions of Missouri courts in passing any ordinance. It is not possible to identify every specific subsection of a statute considered when passing this or any other ordinance. The City certainly considered the provisions of Sections 571.010 – 571.070 and 252.243 RSMO. along with many other factors when the City enacted the ordinance regulating the open carrying of firearms within the City limits.



    xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

    City of Excelsior Springs





    From: Dean Carder [mailto:deancarder@att.net]
    Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 9:53 AM
    To: xxxxxx xxxxx
    Subject: RE: City Council

    I realize, as stated, in my email that 21.750 was used. I asked for the exact section, subsection and item. 21.750.3 states that to enact a prohibition the city government must conform exactly to to any of the items in 571.010 to 571.070 and 252.243. So again, what section, subsection and item was used to violate our state right. Please, do not think I will settle for an generic answer to this vital question.



    As always,

    Respectfully,



    Dean Carder

    --- On Wed, 10/3/12, xxxxxxx xxxxxxx <xxxxxxxxx@ci.excelsior-springs.mo.us> wrote:


    From: Shannon Stroud <sstroud@ci.excelsior-springs.mo.us>
    Subject: RE: City Council
    To: "Dean Carder" <deancarder@att.net>
    Date: Wednesday, October 3, 2012, 7:06 PM

    Mr. Carder,



    The Ordinance was passed pursuant to Section 21.750 RSMo. Copies of Missouri statutes may be found at http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/STATUTES.HTM.



    xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

    City Clerk

    City of Excelsior Springs

    201 E. Broadway

    Excelsior Springs, MO 64024

    816-630-0752

    xxxxxxxxxx@ci.excelsior-springs.mo.us







    From: Dean Carder [mailto:deancarder@att.net]
    Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2012 1:43 PM
    To: xxxxxx xxxxxx
    Subject: City Council

    I am requesting the city council provide me with the Missouri Statute the they used to effect the recent ban on open carry in this city. Please provide the section, subsection and item of any and all statutes that are being applied. I know that RSMo 21.750.3 say that cities can institute a ban only if they exactly meet requirements of other statutes.



    "3. Nothing contained in this section shall prohibit any ordinance of any political subdivision which conforms exactly with any of the provisions of sections 571.010 to 571.070, with appropriate penalty provisions, or which regulates the open carrying of firearms readily capable of lethal use or the discharge of firearms within a jurisdiction, provided such ordinance complies with the provisions of section 252.243. "



    You help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.



    Respectfully,



    Dean Carder
    [/I]


  25. #25
    Regular Member mspgunner's Avatar
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    The answer, as I've stated before is through the courts or the legislature. "WE" here on this forum find the statute 21.750.3 unacceptable. Beating our heads against the wall won't change anything.
    There are some of us who have taken the cause to both of above mentioned sources before and we are doing it again to reagain our rights. Debate a municipality if you like, it won't change their minds nor change the State Statute. Wait till after the November election, call, write, email +/or visit with your State Representative and State Senator. Let them know your view on OC and our rights. I have no doubt there will be OC legislation next year, your voice matters at the State level, the munis do what ever they want throughout the State on OC because they can, and after addressing many Municipal Governments on OC rights I've found they don't listen worth a hoot!
    If you pull it, you use it. If you pull it and you don't use it, you've done some thing wrong and you might not get another chance. Think about it before you pack it!
    I worked 24/7 for 2A OC rights! Don't like what I did? Try it yourself, it was my full time job!
    Certified NRA Range Safety Officer - RSO

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