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Thread: change needed on a VCDL handout card???

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    change needed on a VCDL handout card???

    I was at the Salem Gun Show today and picked up a few items from the VCDL booth. One of those items were a card that reads "As a VA CHP holder I have: No felony or domestic violence convictions, No mental defects, passed a criminal background check and I'm trained in the safe and proper use of guns.
    I have an issue with the first line. A person can get a CHP with a felony (if the rights were restored) and most misdemeanor domestic assault and battery convictions in Virginia are not subject to the Lautenberg ban. A person can get a CHP with these charges on their record. I am very proud of the VCDL and I'm certainly not telling them how to do there job. I just feel this info could be somewhat miss leading .....maybe these cards are old but I don't think I'll be handling them out.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    The problem is that the space is limited. The reference must be brief and to the point, succinct.

    Don't we always tell people that they are responsible for researching the law(s) themselves. <rhetorical>
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The problem is that the space is limited. The reference must be brief and to the point, succinct.

    Don't we always tell people that they are responsible for researching the law(s) themselves. <rhetorical>
    True it does say that as well

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by love4guns View Post
    I was at the Salem Gun Show today and picked up a few items from the VCDL booth. One of those items were a card that reads "As a VA CHP holder I have: No felony or domestic violence convictions, No mental defects, passed a criminal background check and I'm trained in the safe and proper use of guns.
    I have an issue with the first line. A person can get a CHP with a felony (if the rights were restored) and most misdemeanor domestic assault and battery convictions in Virginia are not subject to the Lautenberg ban. A person can get a CHP with these charges on their record. I am very proud of the VCDL and I'm certainly not telling them how to do there job. I just feel this info could be somewhat miss leading .....maybe these cards are old but I don't think I'll be handling them out.
    VCDL ALWAYS promotes CHP holders as more worthy/trustworthy law abiding than the general public. While what they say is in large part true, one would wonder why they do that. It is part of their Perks for Permittees mantra. They work much harder to gain CHP priveledges than they do supporting basic rights.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Confused?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    VCDL ALWAYS promotes CHP holders as more worthy/trustworthy law abiding than the general public. While what they say is in large part true, one would wonder why they do that. It is part of their Perks for Permittees mantra. They work much harder to gain CHP priveledges than they do supporting basic rights.
    I have been to a few VCDL events by now and I have to totally disagree with you on this matter. While there is no such thing as the perfect organization they do a good job. Some OC some CC hell there might even be some that NO "C". And I must say at least at the events I think 90% of people OC. Maby they dont do it every day or everwhere they go, but I just dont see how they are bias in the direction of CHPers. But hey im new, and these are just my impresions
    In our quest for knowledge we must be prepared for and armed against misinformation.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I have been to a few VCDL events by now and I have to totally disagree with you on this matter. While there is no such thing as the perfect organization they do a good job. Some OC some CC hell there might even be some that NO "C". And I must say at least at the events I think 90% of people OC. Maby they dont do it every day or everwhere they go, but I just dont see how they are bias in the direction of CHPers. But hey im new, and these are just my impresions
    The problem Tanner, is that the members are not VCDL. The members are only a weapon VCDL wields. I'm not anti VCDL but I realize some of the deficiencies. One is the Board. There are very good board members, very bad board members and one or two in the middle. The membership has no say on appointments, policy or direction.

    VCDL began life as a CHP grass roots organization in NOVA. (I think Al Gore Jr. claims the honor of starting it) Many of the board members are CHP instructors. The majority of the membership is in NOVA.

    So yeah, they lean heavily to the P4P side. I don't take it quite as far as Thundar although the recent hunter on your own position has caused me concern.

    The other side of the coin is, THEY'RE STILL THE BEST THING GOING IN VIRGINIA RIGHT NOW.

    Now before Philip's blood pressure goes up, let me put some perspective on it.

    Philip will argue all day if he thinks he's right. He's always a gentleman about it, he tries to see both sides and he will bend.

    Go talk to the honcho's of the other gun organizations in the state. The NRA just yawns. Another Grass roots group leader I won't mention by name....wants to start a fistfight over saying hello.
    Last edited by peter nap; 09-23-2012 at 11:32 AM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    VCDL ALWAYS promotes CHP holders as more worthy/trustworthy law abiding than the general public. While what they say is in large part true, one would wonder why they do that. It is part of their Perks for Permittees mantra. They work much harder to gain CHP priveledges than they do supporting basic rights.
    VCDL, through the voice of president Philip Van Cleave, has said repeated, "We do not tell our members how to carry."

    That politics within the GA and resulting compromises sometimes yield less than perfect results should not be cause for harsh criticism. We've all heard the remark "baby steps" and that does move the ball forward. It is not always reaching for the gold/most desirable, but it does when expedient avoid the all-or-nothing approach.........which generally gets you nothing.

    Truth be known from my observations is that VCDL would be happiest to see Constitutional Carry the standard for Virginia.

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The problem Tanner, is that the members are not VCDL. The members are only a weapon VCDL wields. I'm not anti VCDL but I realize some of the deficiencies. One is the Board. There are very good board members, very bad board members and one or two in the middle. The membership has no say on appointments, policy or direction.

    VCDL began life as a CHP grass roots organization in NOVA. (I think Al Gore Jr. claims the honor of starting it) Many of the board members are CHP instructors. The majority of the membership is in NOVA.

    So yeah, they lean heavily to the P4P side. I don't take it quite as far as Thundar although the recent hunter on your own position has caused me concern.

    The other side of the coin is, THEY'RE STILL THE BEST THING GOING IN VIRGINIA RIGHT NOW.

    Now before Philip's blood pressure goes up, let me put some perspective on it.

    Philip will argue all day if he thinks he's right. He's always a gentleman about it, he tries to see both sides and he will bend.

    Go talk to the honcho's of the other gun organizations in the state. The NRA just yawns. Another Grass roots group leader I won't mention by name....wants to start a fistfight over saying hello.
    This is not directed at you Peter, but rather my thoughts, in response to your stimulus, for the benefit of others.

    Every organization needs leadership, someone or a group taking point and making decisions. Those decisions will not always (ever?) be completely popular with 100% of the membership. VCDL leadership does hear and is effected by the thoughts of membership - the lines of communication are always open.

    While VCDL did start as NVCDL (northern Va) by people in NoVa with the goal of improving the track to CHP's, both have evolved. We have 3 BoD members in central Va (Midlotian, inner Chesterfield & Prince George) and 1 in far western Va. That puts a majority outside of NoVa and provides a diversity of regional representation that was not present originally.

    The general membership of VCDL is IMO much more than simply numbers to quote - though those numbers do represent a powerful voice. The members are the front line defenders/promoters who demonstrate to the public who and what we are and are the ones who step up and solve many problems. No one person nor even seven people (the BoD) can effectively handle alone those things requiring attention. So to whom does it fall? The membership! That is why VCDL is so strong - because you, you and you step forward. VCDL is no ghost membership list of persons that "like" us - we are grassroots activism personified.

    While, as previously mentioned, VCDL does not recommend how one carries, actions do speak loudly - look at the hip of any BoD member when you see them in any place legal to carry. Most frequently, what do you think you'll see there? Case closed on that issue.

    BTW - I officially become a soccer mom grand dad over the week-end. OCd at my 6 yo grandson's soccer game. Lots of people noticed - no one spoke out negatively. We spread the word by doing.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    VCDL, through the voice of president Philip Van Cleave, has said repeated, "We do not tell our members how to carry."

    That politics within the GA and resulting compromises sometimes yield less than perfect results should not be cause for harsh criticism. We've all heard the remark "baby steps" and that does move the ball forward. It is not always reaching for the gold/most desirable, but it does when expedient avoid the all-or-nothing approach.........which generally gets you nothing.

    Truth be known from my observations is that VCDL would be happiest to see Constitutional Carry the standard for Virginia.



    This is not directed at you Peter, but rather my thoughts, in response to your stimulus, for the benefit of others.

    Every organization needs leadership, someone or a group taking point and making decisions. Those decisions will not always (ever?) be completely popular with 100% of the membership. VCDL leadership does hear and is effected by the thoughts of membership - the lines of communication are always open.

    While VCDL did start as NVCDL (northern Va) by people in NoVa with the goal of improving the track to CHP's, both have evolved. We have 3 BoD members in central Va (Midlotian, inner Chesterfield & Prince George) and 1 in far western Va. That puts a majority outside of NoVa and provides a diversity of regional representation that was not present originally.

    The general membership of VCDL is IMO much more than simply numbers to quote - though those numbers do represent a powerful voice. The members are the front line defenders/promoters who demonstrate to the public who and what we are and are the ones who step up and solve many problems. No one person nor even seven people (the BoD) can effectively handle alone those things requiring attention. So to whom does it fall? The membership! That is why VCDL is so strong - because you, you and you step forward. VCDL is no ghost membership list of persons that "like" us - we are grassroots activism personified.

    While, as previously mentioned, VCDL does not recommend how one carries, actions do speak loudly - look at the hip of any BoD member when you see them in any place legal to carry. Most frequently, what do you think you'll see there? Case closed on that issue.

    BTW - I officially become a soccer mom grand dad over the week-end. OCd at my 6 yo grandson's soccer game. Lots of people noticed - no one spoke out negatively. We spread the word by doing.
    Well put Grapeshot!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    BTW - I officially become a soccer mom grand dad over the week-end. OCd at my 6 yo grandson's soccer game. Lots of people noticed - no one spoke out negatively. We spread the word by doing.
    Congratulations... and there is no better way to honor the memory of "SheFearsNothing", from Pennsylvania, the "Rosa Parks" of gun-carrying soccer moms (and grand dads) all over.

    TFred


    RIP Meleanie Hain
    Last edited by TFred; 09-23-2012 at 03:06 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Congratulations... and there is no better way to honor the memory of "SheFearsNothing", from Pennsylvania, the "Rosa Parks" of gun-carrying soccer moms (and grand dads) all over.

    TFred


    RIP Meleanie Hain
    DoubleTap and I had the pleasure of getting to know Meleanie personally - by email, posts on PAFOA forum, at OC dinners in PA, including her last birthday party before that fateful day. She left small children behind.

    All of that was very much on my mind at I got out of my truck to walk around the soccer field to where my son and his family were sitting. I was walking in the footsteps of an old friend - it was strange feeling.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tanner View Post
    I have been to a few VCDL events by now and I have to totally disagree with you on this matter. While there is no such thing as the perfect organization they do a good job. Some OC some CC hell there might even be some that NO "C". And I must say at least at the events I think 90% of people OC. Maby they dont do it every day or everwhere they go, but I just dont see how they are bias in the direction of CHPers. But hey im new, and these are just my impresions
    It is not the general menbership that tilts toward Perks for Permittees, it is the Board of Directors and the VCDL Legislative Agenda. They have been AWOL on Constitutional Carry and the Virginia Firearms Freedom Act, two issues that really need to be put to rest before the state executive and legislature swing back to the gun grabbers. Now is a ones in a score opportunity and it is being squandered on P4P.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundar View Post
    It is not the general menbership that tilts toward Perks for Permittees, it is the Board of Directors and the VCDL Legislative Agenda. They have been AWOL on Constitutional Carry and the Virginia Firearms Freedom Act, two issues that really need to be put to rest before the state executive and legislature swing back to the gun grabbers. Now is a ones in a score opportunity and it is being squandered on P4P.
    HMMM. While it is not my intention to argue and it goes without saying that actions speak louder than words I will say that I think the board is doing what they think is right. During the last picnic the idea of constitutional carry was addressed. Philip him self said something to the affect of constitutional carry was the ultimate goal. The process im sure is far more intense than I know, however at least they are doing something.
    In our quest for knowledge we must be prepared for and armed against misinformation.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    It is a much more complex issue than you think Tanner. Part of it is simply not being able to please all of the people all of the time....part goes deeper.

    Thundar is at one extreme. I'm a middle of the roader in some respects and extreme in others. I just don't hold VCDL in the same contempt as Thundar does.

    Grapeshot is as always...the voice of moderation and careful thought!
    It's not something that can be discussed successfully on line. I've argued with new members here and later talked about it in person. Most see the light even if they don't choose to step into it.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Ask not what VCDL can do for you, but what you can do for VCDL.

    No one need be in lock step with the group. There is room for independent thinking, but to be overly critical benefits who?

    VCDL members have wrought much good through their hard labor and dedication. I'm proud to be a small part of that.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Tanner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    It is a much more complex issue than you think Tanner. Part of it is simply not being able to please all of the people all of the time....part goes deeper.

    Thundar is at one extreme. I'm a middle of the roader in some respects and extreme in others. I just don't hold VCDL in the same contempt as Thundar does.

    Grapeshot is as always...the voice of moderation and careful thought!
    It's not something that can be discussed successfully on line. I've argued with new members here and later talked about it in person. Most see the light even if they don't choose to step into it.
    And I do understand that I am only privy to very little (if not anything) when it come to the details. I assume that there could always be imporvements and thats why im not trying to say the VCDL has all the answers, or that they could be doing better. I see where Thundar is coming from, like I said actions do speak louder than words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Ask not what VCDL can do for you, but what you can do for VCDL.

    No one need be in lock step with the group. There is room for independent thinking, but to be overly critical benefits who?

    VCDL members have wrought much good through their hard labor and dedication. I'm proud to be a small part of that.
    I thought thats what Kennedy ment to say.

    Like I said in a post a while ago. Im willing to go to the things like the Richmond library, the picnics and what not to show my support, also open carry everwhere I legally can, however when it comes to the politics I just dont have the energy to get real hardcore into it. Unfortunately I realize that that is where the important dessions are made in reguards to our rights, but I will assume my place in the grand scheme of things and offer my support where I can. One team one dream.... I know that does not really apply but I think most of us here would like to see constitutional carry become a reality and organizations like the VCDL can help do help and will help in some way. Even if I dont truely understand how I am sure im not totaly wrong about it.
    In our quest for knowledge we must be prepared for and armed against misinformation.

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